PADI tables finally going away?

[The Chairman]

If I now go out and get bent from ignoring a computer (or failing to properly learn to use it) that was acquired long after my instructor ever knew me, how can that possibly be the instructor's fault?

We are discussing CURRENT training paradigms. Teaching a class NOW without providing adequate training on how to integrate a PDC into your diving is simply negligence on the Instructor's part. UNLESS of course, you forbid your students to use a PDC without additional training.

Can you dive a PDC without instruction? I did. I survived. But then in 1969 my sole instruction for Scuba Diving by the Master Chief was rebuilding a set of regs and learning how to put them on the cylinder. He also showed me how to use the "Escape Rod" as he called the piece of wire coming off of the J-Valve. I survived that training too, but is was not adequate and I would say that he was not only negligent but also incompetent to train. I dove for years without the use of tables or gauges without any injury. You won't find me stuck in the dark ages though: equipment evolves and so should our training to incorporate that change.

 

[ScubaSteve]

OK sorry. So you know the instructor of this woman and know that her training did not in any way include anything to do with PDC's? I still find it odd that the instructor is having 100% or the blame put on them. I understand your point but believe that to relieve the woman of all stupidity is just dangerous. Just because someone was not shown how to use a PDC does not mean the rules do not apply to them.

If you are right that she was not at all shown anything to do with PDC's, she still absolutely IGNORED her training. She accumulated 23 minutes of deco obligation. I am sorry but that ranks up there as stupid no matter what is said. Unless that is you can tell me that that is what her instructor trained her to do. She was at fault, not her instructor. She ignored it and would have ignored her PDC training as well.

DARWIN candidates come in many forms no matter what they were trained to use.

We are discussing CURRENT training paradigms. Teaching a class NOW without providing adequate training on how to integrate a PDC into your diving is simply negligence on the Instructor's part. UNLESS of course, you forbid your students to use a PDC without additional training.

 

[The Chairman]

OK sorry. So you know the instructor of this woman and know that her training did not in any way include anything to do with PDC's? I still find it odd that the instructor is having 100% or the blame put on them. I understand your point but believe that to relieve the woman of all stupidity is just dangerous. Just because someone was not shown how to use a PDC does not mean the rules do not apply to them.

In the final analysis, only the diver was at risk. Only the diver was exposed to the dangers of her lack of training. I am not trying to assign a level of blame here as there was no harm done. What I am trying to point out is that there is an onus for instructors to train our students to dive with the tools they will be using. What's so hard to comprehend here? Open up ANY magazine or go to ANY website talking about or selling dive gear and you will see advertisements for PDCs. The marketing is in place to sell these to all divers, including my students. Now go on a boat and listen to the DM drone on about the extra bottom time they allow peeps on a PDC. PDCs are selling like hot cakes and we are allowing these people to dive them with little training. Shameful. Especially considering that the LDS sold this woman her PDC.

As long as this marketing exists I think it's negligent for an instructor to not teach their students HOW to dive with a PDC. It's an unnecessary dumbing down of the curriculum by lazy and short sighted instructors who believe that somehow tables are sacrosanct. Now let's re-examine this statement.

I understand your point but believe that to relieve the woman of all stupidity is just dangerous.

Why advocate LESS training? Why not relieve as much stupidity from this woman as possible? I want to get rid of ALL of it, if I can! That means having the integrity to teach her to USE the tools she will be diving with. That's what being and instructor is all about.

DARWIN candidates come in many forms no matter what they were trained to use.

I would be appalled if my negligence resulted in someone getting hurt or worse. My focus as an instructor is on SAFETY and teaching them to avoid becoming a candidate. Why else do we exist?

 

[ScubaSteve]

Why advocate LESS training?

But are you not the one saying that your students only get taught to dive a computer? Perhaps I misunderstood something in several of your posts. I am not in any way saying that teaching computers is wrong......I am saying I believe that to not teach the tables at all (and not just a quick brush over) so that a diver has a foundation for what the PDC is telling them is bordering on negligent and I am surprised any agency condones it.

By the way, I hope someday to find a boat that allows a PDC diver more bottom time. You say they exist so I believe they do. Everywhere I have ever been told the entire group "You have 45 minutes...then we leave" (paraphrasing of course). I like your boats way better.

 

[ScubaSteve]

That means having the integrity to teach her to USE the tools she will be diving with. That's what being and instructor is all about.

What if the diver changes tools after OW? A computer dies and they cannot afford top replace it? Give up diving? Take a whole new OW class? Jump in and hope for the best?

 

[The Chairman]

But are you not the one saying that your students only get taught to dive a computer?

They are given an overview of the tables as a historical reference.

Perhaps I misunderstood something in several of your posts. I am not in any way saying that teaching computers is wrong......I am saying I believe that to not teach the tables at all (and not just a quick brush over) so that a diver has a foundation for what the PDC is telling them is bordering on negligent and I am surprised any agency condones it.

Both the tables and PDCs are based on algorithms. The PDC is NOT based on tables. Why teach them something that is patently not true? Using your logic, we should be teaching how to determine the algorithms as well... that is IF you must understand the source to understand how to use things.

By the way, I hope someday to find a boat that allows a PDC diver more bottom time. You say they exist so I believe they do. Everywhere I have ever been told the entire group "You have 45 minutes...then we leave" (paraphrasing of course). I like your boats way better.

Not to rub it in your face, but there are a few boats that allow for 90 minute dives and reduced SIs based on your use of a PDC and NitrOx. (rub, rub, rub)

 

[letterboy]

PSSST Pete - You get my PM I sent you yesterday

 

[The Chairman]

What if the diver changes tools after OW? A computer dies and they cannot afford top replace it? Give up diving? Take a whole new OW class? Jump in and hope for the best?

Wow, that's a toughie. Can you even produce such a person? Might be easier to find an Invisible Pink Unicorn. Diving is an expensive sport. What if your regs fail? Are you going to give up diving because you can't afford to replace them? Now you lost a fin and your mask. The costs just keep adding up.

The REAL issue here is that instructors are turning out divers who are not able to use a very common, useful and simple tool. While you might not have a problem with that, I certainly do.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Wow, that's a toughie. Can you even produce such a person? Might be easier to find an Invisible Pink Unicorn. Diving is an expensive sport. What if your regs fail? Are you going to give up diving because you can't afford to replace them? Now you lost a fin and your mask. The costs just keep adding up.

The REAL issue here is that instructors are turning out divers who are not able to use a very common, useful and simple tool. While you might not have a problem with that, I certainly do.

Well I am not about to start looking for a pink Unicorn....that is how rumours get started . So, OK while you somehow see that as absolutely impossible, I will play it a different way.

Diver X owns a dive computer, is pretty much a newly minted diver, and is always diligent about rinsing their gear. They show up after a long drive to do three dives.....left the computer at home dammit. A newly minted diver not likely to have redundancy in computers. I guess they have to call the day and go home. FYI....most my diving is relatively remote and not really near any dive shops so to "go get one" is not the best solution.

My solution is that they are tought the know how to follow the tables and to be able to safely plan the dives and follow the plan.

I think it is safe to say that you will not like any scenario that makes not teaching a student to use tables "suspect", and I will never think it is right to not give the diver the foundations to dives safely with multiple tools (computers OR tables instead of just computers). I will concede and agree to disagree since we will continue in circles forever.

 

[The Chairman]

Well I am not about to start looking for a pink Unicorn....that is how rumours get started . So, OK while you somehow see that as absolutely impossible, I will play it a different way.

I will be patient.

Diver X owns a dive computer, is pretty much a newly minted diver, and is always diligent about rinsing their gear. They show up after a long drive to do three dives.....left the computer at home dammit. A newly minted diver not likely to have redundancy in computers. I guess they have to call the day and go home. FYI....most my diving is relatively remote and not really near any dive shops so to "go get one" is not the best solution.

What if they forgot their tables? Their BC? Their regs? I fail to see how this would only apply to PDC divers.

My solution is that they are tought the know how to follow the tables and to be able to safely plan the dives and follow the plan.

I have a different solution. Make a list and check it twice! Bringing all your gear would sure be nice!

I think it is safe to say that you will not like any scenario that makes not teaching a student to use tables "suspect", and I will never think it is right to not give the diver the foundations to dives safely with multiple tools (computers OR tables instead of just computers).

But it's simply not being done. Look at the responses in this thread. INSTRUCTORS are confusing learning how to operate a PDC with learning how to dive with one. That's HUGE. That's staggeringly bad for the industry and results in lots of angst and panic as these divers just starting to dive their PDCs are being assaulted with alarms and graphs they never had before. I remember hearing the response to the "How do I use this?" question at a recently closed dive shop here in the Orlando area: "It's simple: you'll figure it out!" Whoa. Translation: "I don't have a stinking clue how to teach you."

I will concede and agree to disagree since we will continue in circles forever.

As long as you know I am right!