PADI tables finally going away?

[leabre]

Sorry if I touched a nerve. My messages come out less than perfect when I'm long over due for sleep. Let's forget (and already edited) that I said anything about using a watch over a computer/bottom timer.

 

[Jax]

Wow - I'm learning a lot in this discussion!

However, let me put forth an analogy. Engineers [last week I couldn't spel egnier, now I are one] have to have three years of calculus and a year of calculus in applications. Then in the junior and senior years, they have to use calculus in continuously more difficult application problems.

The bottom line is that engineers do NOT use calculus in day to day engineering -- there are some mighty fine programs out there. Yet NOWHERE, NO TIME is the engineer relieved of the responsibility of the correctness of the underlying calculus. You have to know what are within parameters, enough so you can notice with the computer is "off".

In the same way, a diver MUST be familiar enough with the tables to raise an eyebrow -- yea, to notice, even - when something is not right.

For those of you that may eschew this view . . . would you want to "be in a building" / "drive on a bridge" / "drive an auto" / "be in a plane" . . . built by an engineer that really didn't understand calculus . . . ?

And as for dive computers failing - my Aladin Pro Ultra failed -- WAAA! -- but I happily had the battery replaced with the associated tests and services. You see -- it either worked, or it didn't, both of which seem perfectly safe to me.

 

[vinegarbiscuit]

I must have received lemons from a certain dive manufacturer's warehouse, because my original computer crapped out on me twice, and the one they sent me to replace it also died once(they've since been replaced with a different brand!). But between my dive tables and an everyday waterproof watch, I was able to carry on diving. I also appreciate being taught tables for another reason: by looking at dive tables and identifying the relationship between shrinking bottom-time numbers and growing depth, you gain a better understanding of the relationship between depth and dive physiology. Plus, you appreciate why your computer presents a given dive profile when it's in 'plan' mode. I'm not about to try and delve into to the computer's algorithms, but I do like having a rough idea of the 'why' behind it all. Dive tables are probably the best graphic illustration of that. So yay to dive tables, and long may they co-exist with dive computers. The alternative is ugly...imagine having a crapped-out computer and asking someone else to read tables for you can continue diving? Talk about putting your life in someone else's hands, as well as feeling like the world's biggest twit. No bloody thank you.

 

[gndpdr]

honestly ? to make it real simple if a "diver" can't read and use tables...i myself will refuse to dive as a "buddy" in my view the "diver" is a huge liability and risk to myself and others and i find it insulting that they even got certified

 

[leabre]

honestly ? to make it real simple if a "diver" can't read and use tables...i myself will refuse to dive as a "buddy" in my view the "diver" is a huge liability and risk to myself and others and i find it insulting that they even got certified

It is hard to refuse to dive with someone who does not read tables. When I got my OW cert back in '06, we were not even taught tables (SDI). It did not hinder any of our abilities as a diver as we became more active in the sport. I still dive with the others that were on my OW class, all of us now have finally moved into or past Intro to Tech level classes (except me who did UTD essentials which in my mind, is roughly equivelant).

I did learn the tables, however, in LACO ADP program, and then again in my Nitrox class, and then a completely different set of tables and rules in Essentials.

I suppose for those reasons, I don't mind diving with people who can't read tables, because where I dive (So. Calif.) they aren't of much use, anyway, for shore dives where you gradually ascend to some depth (40 - 80 ft.) depending on location, and then gradually ascend back the same slope for a grand total of 60 - 120 minutes. My dives are usually more than 90 minutes where my max depth was 80. I would be in massive deco according to the US Navy Deco schedule.

So why would someone use a table and cut the dive short when everyone else using a computer has at least half-as-much more time remaining before trailing the NDL?

When it comes to Nitrox diving, I expect my buddies to know how to read or compute the EAD and 02 TOX times, and perform a tox rescue. Beyond that, everyone uses their computers still.


Thanks,
Shawn

 

[Tigerman]

It is hard to refuse to dive with someone who does not read tables. When I got my OW cert back in '06, we were not even taught tables (SDI). It did not hinder any of our abilities as a diver as we became more active in the sport. I still dive with the others that were on my OW class, all of us now have finally moved into or past Intro to Tech level classes (except me who did UTD essentials which in my mind, is roughly equivelant).
...

Well, I can teach anyone to put my tank on their back, stick the reg in their mouth and breathe - but it doesnt mean its safe to do so. Being an active diver doesnt mean youre a safe diver either. Just because youve done 1000 skydives without any issues doesnt mean youll do 1000 more without any issue coming up. And if it does, its pretty handy to recognize it in time to correct it before it become sever..

 

[ScubaSteve]

Well, I can teach anyone to put my tank on their back, stick the reg in their mouth and breathe - but it doesnt mean its safe to do so. Being an active diver doesnt mean youre a safe diver either. Just because youve done 1000 skydives without any issues doesnt mean youll do 1000 more without any issue coming up. And if it does, its pretty handy to recognize it in time to correct it before it become sever..

I am definitely not following one side or another on this topic here, but this is very true. There are WAY TOO MANY divers out there that only surface safely because they have been lucky. LUCK does not translate equally into SKILL. Luck runs out eventually and many divers out there will not know how to handle the situations properly when their luck runs out. Skill comes from training and experience and will enable you to safely handle most issues that could arise.

Again, I am not saying one person is lucky and another is skilled....I do think everybody should know and recognize that there is a difference. A lucky person will not likely recognize themselves as such unless somebody points it out though....otherwise they likely believe they are skilled.

 

[AfterDark]

My 2cents: I wouldn't know what to do with a dive computer. I did use the US Navy dive tables, a watch and depth gauge for years with great success. When I get back into the water soon, I'll continue to use the tables if I need to decom. Maybe after I dive with someone that uses a computer for a few years with success I'll look into buying one. As for now I'll stick to what I know works. Just what does someone who doesn't know the tables do when 2/3's into a dive and committed to decom stops has their computer go south or gets damaged to the point it doesn't work? I guess if you have a buddy you can use theirs. If not, hang at 10'-20' until the air gets low? Or pray on the way up?

 

[boulderjohn]

Just what does someone who doesn't know the tables do when 2/3's into a dive and committed to decom stops has their computer go south or gets damaged to the point it doesn't work? I guess if you have a buddy you can use theirs. If not, hang at 10'-20' until the air gets low? Or pray on the way up?

The topic of this thread is no decompression diving. A diver using a computer on such dives will be within NDLs if the computer goes South, and a simple safety stop will be more than adequate. Decompression diving requires further training.

A diver who has been properly trained for deco dives will be prepared for that eventuality. In a planned deco dive, the diver will have some form of redundancy, and frequently more than one form of redundancy. Divers will frequently carry two computers and have a knowledge of the tables as well.

 

[The Chairman]

It comes down to a personal choice before, during and after the class. It has been demonstrated that learning how to use tables does not make you a safer, more competent diver and that there is a real lack of instruction on how to use a PDC as a tool for your diving (not just how to operate it).

Case in point... a lady brought in her Veo 250 to a shop recently and complained that the alarm seemed to stick at times. They hooked it up to the shop PC only to find that she had accumulated a 23 minute deco obligation. Rather than being broken, her PDC was crying for her attention on the dive. A quick look at both dives one and two and it was oh-so-obvious that she would be in deco. You can blame the PDC, but it was only doing it's job. Me? I blame the instructor that was SO short sighted and SO stuck on teaching tables that he NEGLECTED to teach her how to use her ultimate instrument of choice: the PDC. He set her up for failure by not teaching her how to use that PDC. Shameful.

Again, this is NOT just teaching them how to operate a particular PDC. That's what the manual is for and why we have manuals even for things like regs and BCDs. This is about integrating the PDC into the way they dive so that they learn to watch their nitrogen load, listen to/identify alarms and just when to bail should it fail.