PADI responded to their OW swim requirement...

[Ann Marie]

So Ann, are you saying that as the instructor, even tho PADI says swim OR snorkel, you have the ability to change, or veer away from PADI's standards?

No I don't veer from the standards nor do I change them. The key is "OR". I have them complete the swim. If I had a student ask to do the snorkel I would ask them why but they have the choice. I just don't usually offer a choice.

Same thing applies with the SCUBA unit removal underwater. Standards say that their buddy can assist, if required. Do I tell my students that? Definately if I had a student that had a disability that required assistance but to my other students no I don't. I want them to KNOW that they can handle this skill by themselves (but again it is a case by case basis). If that means that we spend more time in the pool then we spend more time in the pool.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Even worse, someone might judge me for not being as skilled as they are.

I don't often see any one around here judge divers for being unskilled. Some of us are pretty hard on the agencies but I generally consider the "divers" as victems. They mistakenly trust the agency and just don't know any better. Unfortunately, sometimes it's too late when they do.

 

[Divedoggie]

I don't often see any one around here judge divers for being unskilled. Some of us are pretty hard on the agencies but I generally consider the "divers" as victems. They mistakenly trust the agency and just don't know any better. Unfortunately, sometimes it's too late when they do.

Divers are accused of rototilling the bottom all of the time. This is definitely not a statement about their safety.

I am not advocating anyone diving like a rototiller! One of my favorite dives is a place called Perch Lake. There is a sunken airplane and a car, and some huge catfish as well as trout and perch. When the water is clear, its an incredible dive. Problem is, there is several feet of extremely light sediment at the bottom. One carless flap of a fin and the whole place goes to hell in a handbasket.

I just think that people should be given the chance to be beginners and then find ways to improve. It is unrealistic to require a diver to be an expert to get the OW cert.

They should certainly meet and exceed minimum standards and be safe divers.

I posted the last post for some comic relief. We all just go round and round, Limbaugh on one side Franken on the other. Its pretty futile.

 

[Ann Marie]

I don't often see any one around here judge divers for being unskilled.

You've got to be joking..... ..........good one!

 

[Thalassamania]

You've got to be joking..... ..........good one!

FOR being unskilled as opposed to AS being unskilled. There is a difference.

 

[rockjock3]

Yes... but Ive seen that standard not being enforced.

First. Standards not being enforced is the Instructor's fault, not an organization. The organization certifies the individual to be an instructor in that demonstrate their knowledge of the training material, proper presentatino and following the standards. If the instructor fails to continue practicing what they learned when they instruct they need to be reported.

Second, you are correct that there are no ledges every 25m in the ocean/lake, but what about that thing on your back. You can't float with that to take a break?

Don't get me wrong, I think the requirement that a diver should have the ability to swim, but I haven't heard of to many dive accidents that read "couldn't swim" as the cause or even a contributing cause.

Face it, you don't really have to swim to dive. You aren't going to throw all your stuff off and go for it. I am going to keep all my gear with me until I have no other choice. I for one am going to keep my wetsuit (warmth), my fins (mechanical advantage swimming), my mask (water collection if it rains and signaling), of course my x-shorts with all my safety gear, and even if I toss my tank and regs I will keep my bp/w for additional floatation.

 

[MikeFerrara]

A Five Star Rating means the shop has more requirements than a simple Dive Center rating, as does an IDC center. This includes

-a clean QA record for 12 months
-obtaining education, environment, and community involvement awards
-constant communication with customers
-recently teaching plenty of PADI classes and promoting and running trips

To me this indicates a higher quality PADI dive Center than the basic Dive Center level.

You forgot what may be the most important requirement!
They must agree not to offer any NON-PADI recreational courses As much as anything else it's essentially a exclusivity agreement/commitment.

The easiest way to understand is to just see some of the actual requirements in print

1, have been a PADI dive shop for 12 months with no QA problems.
2, continue to meet all requirements for a PADI dive shop.
3, have been awarded all three awards...education, community envolvement andenvironment.

Lets break to look at the awards. The education award...
issues 150 PADI certifications with at least 50 for AOW, 15 specialty in 5 areas, 5 rescue and 5 DM or AI.

Issued only PADI recreational certifications for the last 12 months
Used the complete PADI system and all materials
Not conducted, sponsored nor advertised any nonPADI recreational instructor training programs...I'm getting tired of typing. Are you getting the idea?

Back to the regular requirements
4, distribute a communications piece (you know those email news letters from the dive shop?)
5, Conduct at least one AOW, 1 rescue, 1 DM or AI and 1 specialy course each year.
6, Have issued 30% of total certifications for courses above OW
7, Have your air analyzed
8, Display dive travel promo materials
9, Conduct local non-training dives or trips
10, Exclusively issue and advertise PADI certifications for recreational scuba diving courses
11 not conduct, sponsor or advertise and nonPADI recreational scuba instructor training programs
12 Use the complete PADI system using all the materials.
13, have PADI educational and promo materials displayed in the retail area of the store.
14, Insure that all oporations in a chain are PADI retail members also.

I shortened up the wording on some of those but I think I reproduced it pretty accurately. These requirements are over and above all the requirements applicable to any PADI dive shop. Note the volume requirements for classes. The requirements to display PADI materials in the retail area and the requirements to only offer or advertise PADI classes.

Aside from being able advertise that you are a 5 star store, why would a store want this rating? I don't know where my old catalogs are but if I remember right a PADI dive shop gets a better price on PADI products than an instructor and a 5 star store gets a better price than a plain old PADI dive shop.

When I owned a shop, we opted not to become a 5 star store because I wanted to be able to offer any class I wanted and I was also an IANTD instructor. As a 5 star store I would have been prohibited from offering IANTD recreational courses.

Shoot between PADI, the manufacturers and the credit card companies telling me what I HAD to display in my retail area, I didn't feel like I owned the place at all. I should have been renting advertising space. LOL

 

[friscuba]

That's a good question. So essentially you could have a group of students that fail based on swim requirements with instructor A but the same group with the same abilities could pass with instructor B of same agency using minimum standards.

Apparenlty so with NAUI, I e-mailed them and asked them direct... very fast response... still waiting to hear from the YMCA.

According to NAUI, instructors can exceed the requirements and make them mandatory as long as their requirements are published, applicable to everyone in the class and the entire class agrees in advance.

I assume this means a written syllabus including all skill requiments and each student sign off on the syllabus prior to the course. Good for them, I'd personally think it would be only fair if the instructor does notify the students that his personal requirements are above and beyond the actual requirements to become certified, mainkly so poeple have a clue that there are other options out there.

 

[paulithepin]

If you don't want PADI certification or don't believe it is strenuous enough, DON'T GET PADI certified and DON'T DIVE WITH PADI CERTIFIED DIVERS! Easy enough!

 

[MikeFerrara]

Divers are accused of rototilling the bottom all of the time. This is definitely not a statement about their safety.

It's because they aren't taught how not to. When I mention it, and I mention it often, it's being used to demonstrate the effectiveness of training.

I am not advocating anyone diving like a rototiller! One of my favorite dives is a place called Perch Lake. There is a sunken airplane and a car, and some huge catfish as well as trout and perch. When the water is clear, its an incredible dive. Problem is, there is several feet of extremely light sediment at the bottom. One carless flap of a fin and the whole place goes to hell in a handbasket.

I just think that people should be given the chance to be beginners and then find ways to improve. It is unrealistic to require a diver to be an expert to get the OW cert.

No one said anything about being an expert. But if we're going to discuss this, lets look at what PADI requires in the way of buoyancy control, trim and propulsion techniques in the actual standards.

People keep telling me what's unrealistic to expect but after all the teaching I did, I disagree.

They should certainly meet and exceed minimum standards and be safe divers.

I posted the last post for some comic relief. We all just go round and round, Limbaugh on one side Franken on the other. Its pretty futile.

Minimum standards just don't require that a diver be able to dive or that they are even shown how. That's my point. I have no good thoughts at all about PADI standards.

And yes, I suppose most of this is pretty futile.