PADI responded to their OW swim requirement...

[jviehe]

People bring it up here all the time.

However, the agencies don't really base their courses on what the RSTC says. Some of the bigger agencies are the RSTC and simply write the standards that they would like to follow. So, the RSTC standards and resultant ansi standards are based on what the agencies want to do.

While having an RSTC defined minimum aids the agencies in staying on the same page with each other when it comes to things like giving credit for the courses of other agencies, as far as any sort of regulatory function it would be like the fox guarding the hen house.

The RSTC is NOT some sort of independant and impartial body deciding what dive training should be. It is some of the agencies getting together and deciding for themselves what dive training is going to be. Unfortunately people continually bring up RSTC standards and present them as evidence that an agency is doing something right because they meet those standards. I don't know if industry professionals are really that misinformed or if they are are just that dishonest.

Im not arguing for or agianst it. Im simply pointing out that the RSTC, which sets the minimum standards for an OW class, has set the watermanshop requirements. As you mentioned, the RSTC is a panel of ALL the major agencies, not just PADI.

 

[Thalassamania]

And looking at the history of diving, 30 years ago a vast majority of the instructors were ex-military. These instructors carried over their military training to the recreational diving standards.

Actually I don’t remember it that way.

After reading this thread, it appears that there are many instructors out there that are writing their own standards, but still billing it as an agency certification.

Actually, under contract, I wrote some of their standards too. Let’s remember what “certification” is and where it came from.

Back in the day there were basically two types of dive cards, one came from an institution of higher learning the other came from an Instructor or Dive Shop (I ran into a guy a little while back that still has his Stan’s Scuba card from San Jose). In the late 1950s the National Diving Patrol (modeled on the concept of the National Ski Patrol) was a column in Skin Diver Magazine that made a first attempt to, on a national level, put training standards in front of people. I can remember seeing cards that said, “I, Instructor’s Name, certify that, Student’s Name, has completed a course of training that meets the standards of the National Diving Patrol.” See … “certify” was (and is) something the Instructor did (does). In 1959 (or 60) the National Diving Patrol became NAUI. LA County had been up and running since the early 1950s and YMCA also kicked it’s program off in 1959. At the universities we’d written the first standards back in 1952 and continued to do so, we codified them nationally by founding the AAUS.

But these standards were always intended to be MINIMUM standards that must be met. Until PADI came along (in its third major standards revision, I believe) there was never any discussion of setting maximum standards or of discouraging the promulgation of more stringent standards.

So yes, you see many different approaches represented here. My responsibility was to the President of my institution, through my Diving Control Board and its Chairperson, not to PADI or NAUI or SSI or anyone else. While I had (and have) a keen interest in what they may (or may not) be doing, that interest’s only academic and without real effect on what’s done and how it’s done. The standards that I’m held to are those of similar programs which we finally codified in the AAUS Standards and Procedures Manual. I provided my research divers with internationally recognized certification cards solely for their convenience, but most of them dove on their institution card, log and training record book and did not need a “C-card.”

People say that they’re “certified by GUE” or whatever, that’s not true. They’re certified by Instructor Joe Blow to have met the standards of GUE, or whatever. The bottom line is that the bottom line’s different from one program to another, except where the training agency has attempted to set a ceiling, for whatever reason. My kind of training predates the agencies and has a much lower risk level than the agencies (we never had a training fatality and we’ve never had a diving fatality. We have a few bends cases in several million logged dives, very few of which were even moderately serious.) That’s why I am appalled at what passes for entry level training in the recreational community. If you don’t think that you, and your loved ones deserve to be trained within a system that has a fifty year track record of incredibly low risk and demonstrably high skill level, then be my guest, save a few bucks.

 

[Ann Marie]

SCUBA diving really isn't rocket sceince and can be quite safe. When I have my students swim (I don't give them the choice) I can tell who is going to need some extra time in regards to getting them to kick correctly. I have also recommended some outside swim lessons to people (and on those two occasions one was certified only as a SCUBA Diver meaning he has to dive with a professional and the other wasn't certified at all).

SCUBA is supposed to be fun. I don't believe that you need to be able to run a marathon just to SCUBA.

There are always going to be people that what a course to be more difficult just because their course back when they started was harder.

 

[Drew Sailbum]

I view these requirements as both a test of comfort in the water as well as a very basic check on the overall physical fitness of the student.

It has become abundantly clear to me that PADI does not enforce these watermanship standards.

When a violation of this training standard was reported in relation to the most serious possible outcome for a student, PADI did nothing substanitive. Supporting documentation an witness contact informantion was provided, and still nothing substanitive.

:shakes head and walks away:

 

[Thalassamania]

Im not arguing for or against it. I'm simply pointing out that the RSTC, which sets the minimum standards for an OW class, has set the watermanshop requirements. As you mentioned, the RSTC is a panel of ALL the major agencies, not just PADI.

The RSTC does not SET butkis. Ex post facto it adopts as minimum standards the worst possible (read that as the lowest or least meaningful) value for a give item from amongst the standards of its members. Its a complete and utter joke to those who know and a complete and utter fraud perpetrated on everyone else.

 

[Walter]

Drew, long time, no see. I'm sorry to hear they are not enforcing their standards. I hope you are well and prosperous. I've missed you around here.

 

[friscuba]

Interesting. My son is in fifth grade; in fourth grade he did do a little algebra, some geometry and a research paper. I guess he’s a year slow.
QUOTE]


Wow they start 'em early these days. We didn't see any algebra or geometry 'til around middle school, research papers were in high school and an optional class.

Then again, I should've known... my sister was telling me about her second grade son's powerpoint assignment... Powerpoint? When I was in the second grade half the class had finally figured out the alphabet.

 

[Thalassamania]

Interesting. My son is in fifth grade; in fourth grade he did do a little algebra, some geometry and a research paper. I guess he’s a year slow.
QUOTE]


Wow they start 'em early these days. We didn't see any algebra or geometry 'til around middle school, research papers were in high school and an optional class.

Then again, I should've known... my sister was telling me about her second grade son's powerpoint assignment... Powerpoint? When I was in the second grade half the class had finally figured out the alphabet.

Yeah, I was talking to a friend who was getting headaches from her monitor. I wanted to tell here how to adjust the refresh rate to see it that would help, so she put here ten year old on to talk to me.

 

[ams511]

I would have been wrong if I had been talking about Penn State

I was replying to SparticalBrane, who mentioned that the 1200 yard combined swimming requirement was a requirement of his university, not of the certification agency. Since he cannot give the reasoning behind it, I can only conclude that it is a Phys Ed requirement.

I went to 3 universities, none required such a long swim. You also said that univerisities run their scuba courses like a normal phys-ed course, which is not true. I am currently at FIU which has a marine biology program, if you want I could check the qualifications for a OW diver, I have the syllabus for the master diver class in front of me and their is no mention of additional requirements for a longer swim.

 

[Lead_carrier]

.... When I have my students swim (I don't give them the choice) I can tell who is going to need some extra time in regards to getting them to kick correctly. ........

So Ann, are you saying that as the instructor, even tho PADI says swim OR snorkel, you have the ability to change, or veer away from PADI's standards?