PADI responded to their OW swim requirement...

[ams511]

... haven't seen that one before!

I like to think outside the box.

 

[rakkis]

'Nuff said.

That is a really good analogy. Thank you for taking the time to flesh it out.

I agree with you. The industry's current model for 'stepped' training has built-in flexibility to accomodate everyone from please-blow-bubbles-for-me-Mr-DM divers and for people with extensive wreck/cave-underneath-a-glacier-at-500-ft penetration in mind. If someone is willing to dedicate the time, energy, and expense to do a lot at once that's their right. There are plenty of instructors that will make a comprehensive course for you. (And if they can't find one, they should PM me )

I invite anyone that teaches recreational SCUBA to let us know if you are completely, 100% satisfied with any one agency's minimum standards. To be honest, I'm not expecting that to be the case for many people.

Like, many who have posted before me, I do not teach to minimum standards. While some of them are adequate, it is my opinion that others are not. I'm fairly new to the whole teaching bit, but I've started to enhance (not deviate) the standards taught in my classes. I've found that I learn from each class I teach; and I revise my classes every time I teach them. Reading about everyone's experiences through SB is also a good source to draw upon and I thank the staff that keeps it running for sharing this forum with us. My continuing goal is to give my students the best intruction I can provide so that they come out as self-suficient, prudent divers.

The way I see it, you have a few key points in the instructor spectrum:

1. Do not enforce minimum standards, get them through as past as possible. ($$$)
2. Enforce standards to the letter of the law to do the bare minimum (e.g. I guess you can class that swimming, "mastery").
3. Enforce standards to the spirit of the law to turn out students that your agency defines as properly trained.
4. Add to standards so that your agency AND you belive they are properly trained. (good karma)

Obviously instructors from all agencies run the gamut at both ends and everywhere in between. For one, I believe that a small segment of the SB community unfairly labels PADI and its instructors as deficient prima facie. Such blanket statements are untrue and sometimes have a bit of malice behind them. I realize that modding is a labor of love, but frankly statements like the one above are being allowed to stand lately.

On the other hand, you have users that give articulated opinions on why they do not like XYZ. Unfortunately for PADI instructors, since most questions tend to be about PADI, most of the negative opinions that fly around here (whether legitimate or not) are also about PADI.

Now let's talk about something that really matters: Ford or Chevy?

 

[ScubaRandy]

3) They promote vacation diving, which a) Does not maintain diver competency b) Causes destruction of virgin reefs. Most lakes are far less environmentally sensitive then a coral reef C) Promotes the decline of dive shops in landlocked and northern states.

Not True. Last time I looked, Tennessee is a landlocked state. Yet the shop I work for here is experiencing great shop traffic. Trip bookings to the Gulf and to Cabo and to Bonaire are up. Continuing Education is up.

And the divers that we turn out are good at bouyancy control. The main training area around here is a quarry, and it doesn't take much to disturb the vis... Bad trim and the wrong style of kick in the shallow water will take the vis down to 0' in about 2 seconds.

Just had to give my .02psi...

Randy

 

[Thalassamania]

Please let me tell you why the skiing/diving analogy is not a good one.

I am a recreational skier, a very good recreational skier; I don’t teach, or patrol, or coach, I just ski. I learned to ski when I was quite young and I still ski a rather pronounced (I like to think of as stylish) reverse shoulder vadelin. I still take a private lesson now and again, one at least at the start of the season, as well as when I’m faced with things I don’t know (e.g., getting the most out of a new piece of gear).

I listen to my favorite instructors’ opinions concerning gear; as well as my friends; as well as the sales people at my LSS. But I don’t buy my skis or poles or boots from my Instructor and I don’t ask my LSS to teach me, and I am completely indifferent to what organization my ski instructor belongs to, all I care about is the effectiveness of my relationship with him or her. And that’s what makes the difference.

The skiing world is carved up into rather neat boxes that don’t overlap much and that avoid the avaricious conflict of interest that the diving world is trapped in. Plus it’s easy to evaluate a potential Instructor; I can see if they know how to ski on long boards, I can see if they know how to ski my style. Diving is quite different. The agencies are more influenced by the need to maintain market share than they are by any allegiance to espousing effective pedagogy.

Now, do you really think that I just woke up one morning and decided that PADI or SSI or NAUI is evil? Get real. I’ve been heavily involved with these groups, but never beholden to them. That gives me a unique perspective. I know what happened, where a lot of the bodies are buried and I’m have no need to refer to a shovel as an entrenching tool. Let me tell you, from the heart, that you appear to be projecting what you know about the ski industry onto the diving industry and that appears to be blinding you.

 

[irishsquid]

Hello All,
This has made for good reading and covered many views. Being a newbie who is starting my certification at the end of this month, I thought I might go ahead and throw my uninformed spin in, if I may. I definitely think that a swim test should definitely be required. How far? I can't say, however ; none of the requirements suggested are too much or too little in my opinion. The swim/ float requirement shouldn't necessarily equate to comfort IMHO. Ungodly fear of being in water and panic is what you don't want. Timed swims should not be a factor either. When I was in the Navy, I had to qualify in survival swimming for aircrew and it had no time limit as the goal was "survival", not distance/time requirements. OW swim training would be the same goal I should think. To evaluate fitness with a timed swim is not an accurate assesment, as the mechanics for such is not the same as survival swimming/floating. I am now 50 yrs. old and finally pursuing a life long desire, DIVING! I have stayed active and fit and am in better shape than most 30 yr. olds today. I would be willing to prove my "comfort" in the water by floating fully clothed for 1 hr. and then swimming for 5 miles if required, but don't tell me I got X hrs./ mins. to do it. I have stayed active surfing & water skiing, though not like I used to. I took my physical prior to signing up and took the DAN info to my doctor to know what criteria to base his assesment on. All OK. I have been reading scubaboard, DAN, talking regularly to the 2 local LDS's and getting all the info I can, as I feel it is up to the individual to learn and understand as much as possible and prepare/research as much as possible. I have read many threads here that had info on things I know aren't in the manual and much of it I agree should be BASIC training. Since it is not, some would not even know they are missing this info, however; with that said, where does the certifying agency's formal basic training for OW end and the individual's responsibility for his own tail begin. I hope this doesn't come off as an old geezer/newbie rant. I appreciate/enjoy all the posts, thoughts, ideas, etc. I've read. Some characters are real comedians. LOL!
Best regards to all,
Jimi

 

[rakkis]

Your point of view is refreshing and very much appreciated.

I can only speak about PADI's standards as I do not have first-hand knowledge of the specifics of the swimming requirements for everyone else.

The swimming requirements for OW is not timed. It is a continuous swim (slow and steady wins the race!) for 200 yds. Students have the choice to do 300 yds with snorkeling aids. I personally do not like giving students this option and have yet to do so.

The thread water/survival float is for 10 minutes.

 

[Thalassamania]

Hello All,
This has made for good reading and covered many views. ... I've read. Some characters are real comedians. LOL!
Best regards to all,
Jimi

You've got it pretty much on the money.

 

[TheHobster]

I think treading water is simply able to keep your mouth and nostril above calm water. This skill is not aerobic activity...

tell that to the water polo teams and sychro teams that tread constantly for conditioning

The watermanship test is to see if the person is indeed comfy in the water. The tread/float/survival float can be easy for those that are a bit overweight. For those that are in shape it can be an absolute bear. Myself, 30 lbs ago, if I was motionless, my feet were on the bottom within a minute oir two. Now it takes a bit longer. Motionless floating is next to impossible to do unless there is a significant amount of body fat percentage; plus, it is only an unreasonable and unaware instructor that would ask for that

 

[Divedoggie]

T,

The parallels are many fold. Quite a few people enjoy the analogy.

While we can sit here and point out the differences. The most obvious being that one sport invloves being immersed in liquid water and the other involves gliding over frozen water.
We can also point out the similarities. If there are enough similarities, then the analogy is strong.

Both sports are dependent on a unique environment.
Both sports have small markets compared to ball sports. Golf, tennis, football, soccer.
Both sports require training to even be able to participate safely and with any skill.
Both sports are risky. Failure to be properly trained can result in injury or death.
Both sports are positively and adversely effected by the environment. ie...
Factors such as visibility, wind, foul weather, can cause even expert's days to go bad.
Both sports have a very small margin for error.
Both sports are incredibly equipment intensive. Equipment failure could cause injury or death.
Both sports have participants who use numerous techniques and styles effectively.
Both sports can be participated in with minimal physical fitness, but participants will excell with good fitness.
There are many different schools of teaching, and numerous levels that can be achieved as students. Instructors can achieve numerous levels of accomplishment as well.
You can take a private lesson in skiing and get lift cutting privledges and be escorted down the most desireable trails. This is especially valuable in an area where you may have never skied.
You can do a discover local diving, or hire a local DM to dive in unfamilier territory or to give you a refresher.
Politically, its as similar as you want to make it. In skiing, look at the competition for consumers of clothing, equipment, and lift tickets. Marketing is notorious for giving padded or false snow reports, equipment is sold based on gimmicks and cosmetics. Most of the instructors that I know are building egos more than good technique. Tips are much better that way. The PSIA has a system that complicates simplicity, and grades results on truly minimum standards.
Diving is the same. There are a finite number of divers that are being asked to do con-ed, travel to specific destinations or live aboards, and all of the other points that you and others have so vehemently highlighted.

The training in ski racing(which is a different beast) that we do is so precise that we use very specific bevels along the base edge and along the side edge. A pair of race skis may be waxed 200 times over a summer, another 100 times during the fall, and then a specific formula, costing hundreds of dollars will be put on the skis before the race. The skis will be used for one run. The athlete will have rehearsed that run 100 times. Visualized it 100 times, and memorized every nuance of the 3 mile long course. The coaches will have shot video and replayed it frame by frame, until every variable is eliminated. An up to the second course report will be relayed by radio to the competitor immediately before starting, and still the athlete may fail, crash, and be injured or worse.

I admit that an analogy is just that. Reality is learning about diving for diving.
When I apply my skiing knowledge to diving, perhaps I am blinded. But, having been around diving since I was first certified in 1982, I am not totally ignorant. Also, working with students and teaching is not new, nor is observation of "skill mastery."

Obviously your years of experience, and your strong convictions are related directly to diving and teaching and inside knowledge. It seems as though you would be better served showing evidence and appealing directly to the agencies. Change isn't going to happen by professing on Scubaboard.

Enthusiastic, passionate, satisfied, scubadivers such as myself and others, tend to make noise back!

Peace. Seriously, I'm done. Sorry for past snottynesses!

 

[Thalassamania]

Peace. Seriously, I'm done. Sorry for past snottynesses!

Peace, maybe you can help me with this overdone reverse shoulder.