PADI responded to their OW swim requirement...

[Walter]

The bottom line is nothing is going to change. This is the way it is and this is the way it will be. The standards are not going to improve.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The bottom line is nothing is going to change. This is the way it is and this is the way it will be. The standards are not going to improve.

The standards aren't going to change and since I don't work for any of the agencies, I really don't care.

What has changed with the increased communication we have thanks to boards like this is that more divers than ever before have access to information beyond what the agency or the local shop provides.

Yes it gets repetative and if a new board member knew what to search for, they would find it all but we have this constant influx of new divers and even new instructors and we have to keep starting over from square one. On the good side, is that I think most of us know of enough divers and even instructors where it has made a real difference that going through this over and over isn't really too much trouble.

 

[fisherdvm]

The bottom line is nothing is going to change. This is the way it is and this is the way it will be. The standards are not going to improve.

I think you are right. And as long as no statistics can prove otherwise, and as long as no risk of multimillion dollar lawsuits... Things are going to stay the same.

We can't fix the system, just live with it. And that include encouraging divers to take more PADI classes (or whatever else), even if you don't like the organization and its historical failures.

It is nice to know about history... But it is only history. The fact is, most divers will not have access (nor want to) to Thal's class, YMCA, NAUI, or LA... So we should just focus on what you have noted before, what divers should expect out of their OW instruction, regardless of who the certifying agency is.

 

[MikeFerrara]

For better or worse, I start with full disclosure. Here's what I know, here's what I've seen and here's what I think it all means.

When divers stop looking to the agencies as the absolute authority and undisputed experts, then they can really take responsibility for their own training.

If we realize that we're primarily buying access we can put it all into perspective. It's a product not unlike any other. The agencies are no more concerned about your well being than the local car salesmen or the spokesperson on the late night informercial who wants you to call with your credit card information.

It's all a game. Taking a chit load of agency classes isn't going to do anything but make for a nice patch jacket. On the other hand, you need certain cards to get access to certain things. As long as that's true, it's in our best interest to play the game to a certain degree. On the other hand if what a diver really wants is to improve their diving they might have to take some steps that most agencies or dive shops are unlikely to recommend.

 

[loosebits]

We can't fix the system, just live with it. And that include encouraging divers to take more PADI classes (or whatever else), even if you don't like the organization and its historical failures.

I disagree. If someone realizes that the received the standard OW training and their buoyancy and trim sucks, sending them back for PPB may not always be a good idea as they are likely to go back to the same instructor that failed to teach them this skill to begin with. I don't have access to the standards but from what I've read here, they talk about demonstrating "mastery" of buoyancy control in OW so what will be different in PPB? Do the standards for PPB still mention "mastery"? It would be silly to recommend to the diver to go back and pay for another course that promises the same things that the previous course failed to deliver.

I think the best generic advice would be to explain to the diver what he needs to look like in the water and then suggest he either find a mentor that actually looks like in the water, find a private instructor that knows what mastery means or simply learn it on his own.

 

[Thalassamania]

I disagree. If someone realizes that the received the standard OW training and their buoyancy and trim sucks, sending them back for PPB may not always be a good idea as they are likely to go back to the same instructor that failed to teach them this skill to begin with. I don't have access to the standards but from what I've read here, they talk about demonstrating "mastery" of buoyancy control in OW so what will be different in PPB? Do the standards for PPB still mention "mastery"? It would be silly to recommend to the diver to go back and pay for another course that promises the same things that the previous course failed to deliver.

I think the best generic advice would be to explain to the diver what he needs to look like in the water and then suggest he either find a mentor that actually looks like in the water, find a private instructor that knows what mastery means or simply learn it on his own.

Thank You! As far as change is concerned, things will change, they always do. If you do what you can to get the community to THINK about it you may, in time, be able to effect change. Or you can just wait for the next Miss Texas accident and let the government do it for you.

 

[TomP]

....

There are many parallels between the sports of diving and skiing. The one thing that recreational skiing has, is a rated trail system. Bunny slopes, Green, Blue, Black, and Double diamond trails. A skier can take instruction, develope to a certain level, and then choose to ski green trails. More lessons will lead to a quicker ability to ski Blue trails, and so on. The skier may get the basics down and then choose to never take a lesson again. Are they safe? Not on the wrong slopes, yet they strive to go there.

In diving, a newly certified OW diver is given recommendations on diving parameters. They are also given the option of continuing education and/or finding additional resources for becoming better divers, and thus engaging in more demanding dives.

....

Great post... I have a slightly different twist. Almost all of the folks that i know that ski have never taken a lesson and believe that getting injured, either through their own wrecklessness or someone elses, is inevitable.

All of the divers I [personally] know believe that they are accountable for their own safety and for considering and mitigating the risks to any dive. To me, emphasis on dive physics, physiology, planning and individual accountabilty trumps swimming, floating, bobbing, whatever. I remember pictures of divers doing push ups in full gear (okay no fins or mask) and don't think that proved too much either.

I'm not sure what the current minimum OW standards are, and doubt agreement could be reached on what they should be. What i do know is that we are our only irreplacable asset. To the extent we carelessly put that asset at risk we have no one to blame but ourselves. As I said before, whatever the standards, agencies don't train divers, instructors train divers. There will always be good ones and there will always be bad ones. Those that can't pass muster with the former will certainly seek out the latter

 

[sweatfrog]

I think you take my use of the word franchise too literally, I accept responsibility for the miscommunication. However, I still beleive in my analogy. Does a 5-star dive shop pay fees to PADI? Do instructors pay fees to PADI? Does PADI provide marketing assistance to 5-star facilities? Are PADI instructors forced to purchase and sell only PADI supplied materials. If the answer to these questions are yes, then it sounds like a franchise to me. If the answers are no, then I am wrong and thank you for the correction.

Franchise arrangements are characterized by a contractual relationship between a franchiser (a manufacturer, wholesaler, or service organization) and franchisees (independent entrepreneurs who purchase the right to own and operate any number of units in the franchise systems). Typified by a unique product, service, business method, trade name, or patent, franchises have been prominent in many industries, including fast foods, video stores, health and fitness centres, hair salons, auto rentals, motels, and travel agencies. McDonald's Corporation is a prominent example of a franchise retail organization, with franchises all over the world.

I don't remember, does SSI require the shop tie in?

Oh yeah, they always have and now all of the old NASDS stores are SSI.

My dissatisfaction with PADI comes from three reasons:
1) They ignored the tech market completely until it bacame a big enough market for them to profit from.

You're right about that. However, when TDI first came out with their Nitrox course the Instructor wasn't covered under OSHA because they were diving a gas different than air. PADI, Oceanic and others got a waiver implemented to allow that to occur.

I'll bet in all fairness, that PADI still doesn't certify many tech divers, because the course is so stringent.

2) In some international markets they require the student to submit a sticker from the course pack in order to be certified, so as to prevent the borrowing of books (more money for PADI)

I have each student tear out their knowledge reviews to stop that. People need to refer to those books later.

3) They promote vacation diving, which a) Does not maintain diver competency b) Causes destruction of virgin reefs. Most lakes are far less environmentally sensitive then a coral reef C) Promotes the decline of dive shops in landlocked and northern states.

So does every other agency. Whats your point?

 

[TeddyDiver]

Help me out here. Where? We have a 30 second hover in any position. We have fin pivots...and so on. I have a feeling it would be a lot less typing for you to sho me where they are than for me to list the places it isn't. LOL

Sorry Mike! Maybe there's just a huge difference how we "read" things (or I have wild imagination or smth).
You mention above 30 sec hover in any position. I read "in any position" that it can be done "in any position" not just in one, so to do it properly in any position most certainly demands a proper trim...:14:

 

[Rick Murchison]

... buying access ...

Excellent!
I'm surprised I've never seen that before, put just that way. You're spot on, Mike.
Rick