PADI responded to their OW swim requirement...

[Thalassamania]

Sorry Mike! Maybe there's just a huge difference how we "read" things (or I have wild imagination or smth).
You mention above 30 sec hover in any position. I read "in any position" that it can be done "in any position" not just in one, so to do it properly in any position most certainly demands a proper trim...:14:

I would read that to mean a 30 second hover in "any single possible position" not in "any position that might possibly be specified."

 

[MikeFerrara]

Sorry Mike! Maybe there's just a huge difference how we "read" things (or I have wild imagination or smth).
You mention above 30 sec hover in any position. I read "in any position" that it can be done "in any position" not just in one, so to do it properly in any position most certainly demands a proper trim...:14:

Well I remember a young lady who I went through the IE with. She had trouble hovering, she said, because of her new wet suit boots. Shw was only able to demonstrte the skill upside down...an uside down lotus actually and she became a proud new PADI OWSI that weekend. The examiner was apparently under the impression that the standards meant in any position that one is able.

Of course in a diving context, it's great to be able to hover in any position the diver sesires at the moment but for general diving purposes, horizontal is the most useful. I think they should have to do that sometime during the course.

 

[rakkis]

I disagree. The system does get a diver up and running pretty quickly. Lots of divers who just want to get the essentials out of the way and get on with their vacation appreciate it (leaving aside the discussion of what is really essential). However, IME most shops and instructors pretty much assume that's what the diver is up to and pigeon holes them into that slot whether they want to be there or not.

Having a relatively light basic course (industry standard today) is in no way incompatible with learning more after it. It's not as though you are prohibited from furthering your education. Should the initial course have more? I am of the opinion that it should. But that is a tanget and not related to my point; breaking down the course makes it easier to get into it and gives flexibility to students.

A new diver who has a real serious interest in diving can have a real problem finding a shop or instructor who has a real serious knowledge of diving. That's true, even if we leave dive skills and swimming aside and switch the discussion to the physics, physiology or decompression theory.

There are not plenty of them. If you want to get certified and vacation in the caribbean, you'll have no trouble finding an instructor or shop that speaks your language. If you have other interests, you may just be beating your head against a wall.

You are correct - by and large there are more "just enough to get by" intructors than conscientious ones. However, students aren't dummies, they need to give due diligence when looking for something that is not standard. Combining a series of courses is not unheard of. I have personally worked at a shop where this was done every once in a while. The demand is not there, so it wasn't advertised. I'm sure most places in the mainland (where short vacation time is not an option) would be willing to make similar arrangements if someone is interested.

There are plenty of instructors around here who are comfortable with the minimums and teach them exactly. Watch some of the bigger groups over at Haigh, for example.

In fact, lets do this since you're in the area. Lets set aside a couple of days next summer. We'll go to Haigh, Gilboa, France Park and wherever else and just watch classes. We'll bring a copy of the OW standards with us and directly compare it to what we see. I'll even spring for lunch.

Again, you are correct in your estimation of the "just enough to get by" crowd. I have seen this myself. I guess I jsut hold myself to a higher standard.

Sure, let's do that

I guess, some of the situations I've seen have generated a bit of malace that shows up from time to time. But concerning blanket statements, search the board. .....

Think about it. If we are going to discuss the relative merits of dive training vs what you or I think a diver should know and be able to do, where else better to look than the actual course standards. ...

I'm generally aware of all the mudslinging that happens here. I read SB way too much. I agree that most people argue semantics and opinions rather than facts when it comes to adherence to standards.

PADI gets the brunt of it for several reasons. First they're the biggest and most of us have been certified through PADI. Beyond that, they really did start the trends in dive training. The model we see now is their invention.

True, but i was refering to the general tendency to paint PADI as the root of all evil and all the other agencies as harmless/better/etc. All standards for recreational diving have relaxed since the inception of recreational diving. All agencies either had a direct hand in this or followed suit. The newer ones CHOSE to start off at around the same place. If you ask me, that's enough to at least give instructors the benefit of the doubt without any prejudice because of the logo on their c-card.

 

[ams511]

Franchise arrangements are characterized by a contractual relationship between a franchiser (a manufacturer, wholesaler, or service organization) and franchisees (independent entrepreneurs who purchase the right to own and operate any number of units in the franchise systems). Typified by a unique product, service, business method, trade name, or patent, franchises have been prominent in many industries, including fast foods, video stores, health and fitness centres, hair salons, auto rentals, motels, and travel agencies. McDonald's Corporation is a prominent example of a franchise retail organization, with franchises all over the world.

Oh yeah, they always have and now all of the old NASDS stores are SSI.

You're right about that. However, when TDI first came out with their Nitrox course the Instructor wasn't covered under OSHA because they were diving a gas different than air. PADI, Oceanic and others got a waiver implemented to allow that to occur.

I'll bet in all fairness, that PADI still doesn't certify many tech divers, because the course is so stringent.

I have each student tear out their knowledge reviews to stop that. People need to refer to those books later.

So does every other agency. Whats your point?

Randy,

You did not answer my questions regarding the payments but gave me a definition of a francise.

If I wanted tech training, my preference would be to go with a more established tech agency. I would only consider PADI if the individual instructor had a excellent reputation and was with PADI.

I think you should take your old student's books in on trade for the Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving. More information in there and you may get more people deciding to further their training. I still have my book but rarely look at it. Also now that Nitrox is popular the air tables are of limited use.

As was mentioned in a prior post, PADI has significant marketing muscle as opposed to some of the other agencies. Should not they use that muscle to promote more ecologically sound diving practices?

 

[TomP]

If we realize that we're primarily buying access we can put it all into perspective. It's a product not unlike any other. The agencies are no more concerned about your well being than the local car salesmen or the spokesperson on the late night informercial who wants you to call with your credit card information.

While i [once again ] mostly agree I think the cliched comparisons may be a bit harsh. Not all training is commoditized and pointless.

I started diving in 72 and was taught by my friends father who learned to dive in the Navy. Hmmm... thinking back I took that to mean he was trained by the Navy but he didn't actually say that. In any case, his simple rules of don't hold your breath, no deco, and don't pass your bubbles on the way up worked fine for the lake and shore diving that i could afford. a few years later i discovered wreck diving but boat captains required a c-card. Was i buying access way back then, you betcha... but did i learn a lot too, absolutely.
Sadly it seems what now passes for OW pales to what was then called Basic Scuba.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think you should take your old student's books in on trade for the Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving. More information in there and you may get more people deciding to further their training. I still have my book but rarely look at it. Also now that Nitrox is popular the air tables are of limited use.

While that may be a good idea I am amazed at the number of people who push the Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving. I did not find it that useful or complete, I think theres a lot more meat (but maybe less flash) in either the U.S Navy Diving Manual (which can be had for free) or the NOAA Manual.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Randy,


If I wanted tech training, my preference would be to go with a more established tech agency. I would only consider PADI if the individual instructor had a excellent reputation and was with PADI.

I probably wouldn't take a PADI tech course because I've read through the materials and don't care for what they teach or how. You really don't need to have your buddy hold onto your legs when you shoot a bag. Honest!

We could have plenty of discussion about the other tech agencies too but we'll leave that for another time.

 

[deepblueme]

The Padi 5 Star IDC Center that I ran wasn't forced to only sell PADI materials. We also stocked and sold the NOAA manual and several other books from different vendors that were aimed to education.

We just couldnt sell training books from NAUI,SSI,NASDS and so on.

I found for some people the Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving to be a little easier reading and more what they were looking for than the NOAA Manual.

 

[sweatfrog]

You did not answer my questions regarding the payments but gave me a definition of a francise.

You're right and according to that definition the questions you posed (I posted them below) don't have any bearing on franchises.

Does a 5-star dive shop pay fees to PADI? Do instructors pay fees to PADI? Does PADI provide marketing assistance to 5-star facilities? Are PADI instructors forced to purchase and sell only PADI supplied materials. If the answer to these questions are yes, then it sounds like a franchise to me. If the answers are no, then I am wrong and thank you for the correction.

If I wanted tech training, my preference would be to go with a more established tech agency. I would only consider PADI if the individual instructor had a excellent reputation and was with PADI.

Thats your choice. I don't understand what you mean by "with PADI".

I think you should take your old student's books in on trade for the Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving. More information in there and you may get more people deciding to further their training. I still have my book but rarely look at it. Also now that Nitrox is popular the air tables are of limited use.

The newer books don't teach the tables in them. Those are in a separate Instructions for Use booklet

As was mentioned in a prior post, PADI has significant marketing muscle as opposed to some of the other agencies. Should not they use that muscle to promote more ecologically sound diving practices?

Sure, but get the other agencies to come up with the same percentages to plunk in according to their P & L statement. Like that will ever happen.

 

[deepblueme]

"As was mentioned in a prior post, PADI has significant marketing muscle as opposed to some of the other agencies. Should not they use that muscle to promote more ecologically sound diving practices?"

This sounds like PADI divers are killing the reef and it makes me laugh.

Have you seen what a hurricane does? (want to talk silting)
Dynamite/cyanide fishing?
Trawling?
Fertilizer?
Parrot fish?
Dragging anchors?

Yes I do very much agree that basic bouyancy control is very important to the health of the reef but to put the blame on divers is silly.