PADI Rescue Diver question

[Thalassamania]

In my mind, deviation from the standards would be where you wished to change the standard. Bear in mind, the standards (as related to specific courses) are the minimum performance requirements, and you would not be in breach for exceeding them.

1. Confined water - CESA exercise. PADI Standard states "at least 9m". So, if you get them to cover 12m are you in breach of standards? No
2. Confined water - Free flowing regulator - PADI standard states "at least 30 secs". If you get them to do it for 1 min are you in breach of standards? No

Does it state anywhere in the standards that I cannot get the students to perform the skills neutrally buoyant? No, but I do. Breach of standards? No

I think that in these cases you are covered by the "at least" language.

We had a long discussion of the neutral buoyancy issue, championed by BoulderJohn and concluded that it was not prohibited by PADI standards.

 

[awetmedic]

In my mind, deviation from the standards would be where you wished to change the standard. Bear in mind, the standards (as related to specific courses) are the minimum performance requirements, and you would not be in breach for exceeding them.

1. Confined water - CESA exercise. PADI Standard states "at least 9m". So, if you get them to cover 12m are you in breach of standards? No
2. Confined water - Free flowing regulator - PADI standard states "at least 30 secs". If you get them to do it for 1 min are you in breach of standards? No

Does it state anywhere in the standards that I cannot get the students to perform the skills neutrally buoyant? No, but I do. Breach of standards? No

A deviation from standards is a deviation. A tougher approach to a standard is the same as a weaker approach. The course that you are teaching is a PADI course and when you teach material that is not part of the PADI course then you are not teaching a PADI course and you have deviated from standards. Taking a reasonable approach to a standards deviation or an unreasonable approach has the same result, it is a standards deviation.

 

[awetmedic]

I think that in these cases you are covered by the "at least" language.

We had a long discussion of the neutral buoyancy issue, championed by BoulderJohn and concluded that it was not prohibited by PADI standards.

A discussion by any amount of people coming to a consensus on an issue does not change it for that business. It is only when that business decidesto change its own standards do those standards change. There is nothing in PADI guidelines that tells instructors they can deviate from standards if it seems to sound like a good idea.

 

[awetmedic]

I think that in these cases you are covered by the "at least" language.

We had a long discussion of the neutral buoyancy issue, championed by BoulderJohn and concluded that it was not prohibited by PADI standards.

The standards say to that this skill is to be done from 6-9 meters. A depth of 12 meters is a deviation.

 

[boulderjohn]

What you have missed is that this was debated to a painful degree in the last few years. Since you were not a SB member then, you missed it all. I gave you a summary of how you can deal with this issue of deviation from standards, but you ignored it. I will try again.

PADI does not allow you to withhold certification from a student by adding additional requirements beyond those identified in the standards. They do not, however, prevent you from adding additional information to the course as you teach. I (and every instructor I know) adds information they feel is important. We don't put it on a final exam, but we can easily see by observation if the student understands. For example, I add information about gas planning, and I go more deeply into decompression theory. In the shop with which I was formerly associated, the Course Director polled all the instructors to find out what they were adding to the course. He then designed a common program that added all the "best hits" in presentations to the students in addition to the eLearning. PowerPoint presentations were created on some of it. No, there was no formal assessment, but it was obvious when students understood the content. This was done with the full knowledge and approval of PADI.

Next, a program like yours could easily make your instructional program a combination of courses. This would be similar to how schools like Harvard and Yale run graduate programs. (Or at least they used to.) It is a Ph.D program, with the Masters degree conferred only to those who for some reason did not complete the program, which rarely happens. You can combine OW and AOW, for example, and many programs do. You can also combine OW with specialties.

Speaking of specialties, you can pretty much do whatever you want here. Just make an outline and send it to PADI to have it approved as a distinctive specialty. I have one for Diver Planning that covers just about everything a recreational diver needs to know. Jim Wyatt and a couple other veteran cave instructors got a PADI Cave Diver certification approved--it has all the same rights and privileges of cave diving certifications from organizations like NSS-CDS and NACD. If they can get a full bore cave diving course approved, you can get any level of course approved. Thalassamania, who just joined this thread, teaches scientific diving. He could easily get his full certification program approved under the title Scientific Diver.

Finally, you can do workshops in addition to certification programs. these teach whatever you want to teach without the need for formal certification. I have just designed one that teaches skills similar to the GUE fundamentals course, and I will be offering it this spring in a PADI shop.

 

[awetmedic]

What you have missed is that this was debated to a painful degree in the last few years. Since you were not a SB member then, you missed it all. I gave you a summary of how you can deal with this issue of deviation from standards, but you ignored it. I will try again.

PADI does not allow you to withhold certification from a student by adding additional requirements beyond those identified in the standards. They do not, however, prevent you from adding additional information to the course as you teach. I (and every instructor I know) adds information they feel is important. We don't put it on a final exam, but we can easily see by observation if the student understands. For example, I add information about gas planning, and I go more deeply into decompression theory. In the shop with which I was formerly associated, the Course Director polled all the instructors to find out what they were adding to the course. He then designed a common program that added all the "best hits" in presentations to the students in addition to the eLearning. PowerPoint presentations were created on some of it. No, there was no formal assessment, but it was obvious when students understood the content. This was done with the full knowledge and approval of PADI.

Next, a program like yours could easily make your instructional program a combination of courses. This would be similar to how schools like Harvard and Yale run graduate programs. (Or at least they used to.) It is a Ph.D program, with the Masters degree conferred only to those who for some reason did not complete the program, which rarely happens. You can combine OW and AOW, for example, and many programs do. You can also combine OW with specialties.

Speaking of specialties, you can pretty much do whatever you want here. Just make an outline and send it to PADI to have it approved as a distinctive specialty. I have one for Diver Planning that covers just about everything a recreational diver needs to know. Jim Wyatt and a couple other veteran cave instructors got a PADI Cave Diver certification approved--it has all the same rights and privileges of cave diving certifications from organizations like NSS-CDS and NACD. If they can get a full bore cave diving course approved, you can get any level of course approved. Thalassamania, who just joined this thread, teaches scientific diving. He could easily get his full certification program approved under the title Scientific Diver.

Finally, you can do workshops in addition to certification programs. these teach whatever you want to teach without the need for formal certification. I have just designed one that teaches skills similar to the GUE fundamentals course, and I will be offering it this spring in a PADI shop.

You refer to discussions on scubaboard as the way to validate the standards of PADI. Discussions on scubaboard or any other forum do not validate or invalidate PADI standards. PADI, and only PADI does this. Talk all you want, it changes nothing. PADI clearly says that you have to submit what you want to them for approval. For example, before PADI had a rescue course, I submitted a rescue course to them and they approved it for me to teach. I did this with other courses. I, like many other instructors did this before PADI published distinctive specialties, I am well aware of the procedure.

You can not add or subtract anything from PADI standards. You can add anecodotes, explainations, descriptions and be as helpful as an educator as possible. You can simply not deviate from standards.

I have provided you with just a few of the many examples of PADI explicitly saying that standards must be followed. Standards are written in bold type in the PADI manual. There is absolutely no place in the PADI manual that says deviation from standards is possible without a waiver.

You can submit whatever you want, if it goes through the risk management team, training and administrative review, PADI may agree to it. For example, lets say you wanted to present a BC bailout as another alternative to an out of air emergency. Since you are now using equipment not designed to be used for such purposes and there are no standards for the disinfection of the gear to prevent lung infection, (for example) this skill, that has the potential to save lives but that can harm in training, is discussed no place in training literature. As such, good luck getting it approved.

 

[Kenr]

back to the op's question PADI's website isn't very clear on it. Emergency First Response It clearly says the EFR course encompasses the emergency oxygen provider course. Maybe the instructor manuals are different?

 

[awetmedic]

The original poster wanted to know, if I got this right, if O2 was required. The second poster gave the best answer about not letting the lds play games. If the lds wants to require any course or prereq just to park in the parking lot they can. If they require something outside a PADI course and call it a PADI course then they could get a small slap on the hand from PADI.

O2 certification is not required for PADI rescue diver.

 

[beanojones]

1. Confined water - CESA exercise. PADI Standard states "at least 9m". So, if you get them to cover 12m are you in breach of standards? No

As noted, CESA is one of the very few skills completely bracketed with maximum and minimums, and two whole pages with explicit directions on how to conduct the skill in open water.

(And usually a half day devoted to it in the guise of "Ascent Workshops" in the IDC.)

 

[Simon-]

The standards say to that this skill is to be done from 6-9 meters. A depth of 12 meters is a deviation.

That is the standard for the exercise in Open Water. If you would actually care to read the relevant post I made regarding 12m, it stated Confined Water.

Do try to keep up old boy