PADI OW tread/float test

[TMHeimer]

I'm going to change the way I do things. Reading this standard I'll just have everyone swim 200 yards and take at least 10 minutes. It does say swim.

The intent is to not drown for 10 minutes. How the student does that is up the them. Float, bob, egg beater, deadman float.... just don't drown!
Lets not complicate it too much.

That's the quoted standard I recall. Actually, a student did ask a while ago if they could "swim" a little during the "float". I believe consensus was yes. That would mean what you (jokingly?) propose may actually be "legal". Does it say anywhere the 2 tests can't be done at the same time.....?!
This topic has gone through the mill a number of times on SB. Interestingly, I was able to do the 10 min. OW float without drown-proofing, and even the first 13 mins. of the DM 15 min.--arms and legs constantly going. Couldn't do the hands out 2 minutes -- couldn't have when I was 20. So I got a "3" the first time. Found out from Going Pro on SB 10 years ago the drown-proofing was OK and I scored my "5" (I didn't even know what drown-proofing was).

 

[tursiops]

Would appreciate if someone would show us the exact wording as to what you can and can't do on the OW Float and Swim tests.

The written standard was posted in post #3.
Anything else is guidance, recommendations, suggestions, or instructor opinion.

 

[TMHeimer]

If your membership is current you can download the Instructor’s Manual, and having it is a PADI requirement for DMs. Guide To Teaching requires a purchase, although the OW portion might still be available for member download from the OW 2.0 rollout.

Thanks Jack, but I haven't been a member since 2015 when I "retired". When I took the DM course in 2009/10 we weren't told we needed our own copy of the Instructor's Manual, but had access to one in the shop. I have been told by someone here on the Board a while back that this was not correct. I thought it had to do with the revamping of the DM course in 2010 right after I finished the old one, but was told you needed one even in the old course. The only thing I vaguely recall from 10 years ago was knowing how to use the Manual--ie. the Standards in bold lettering, etc., and maybe a couple of other facts about it. There was very little about the manual on the then 160 question written test.

 

[tursiops]

When I took the DM course in 2009/10 we weren't told we needed our own copy of the Instructor's Manual, but had access to one in the shop. I have been told by someone here on the Board before that this was not correct. I thought it had to do with the revamping of the DM course in 2010 right after I finished the old one, but was told you needed one even in the old course.

The 2009 Instructor Manual only lists having a personal copy of the IM as recommended for the DM student, but required that the student have access to one during and after the class.
The 2010 IM was listed as required for the DM student to have a personal copy.

 

[TMHeimer]

The written standard was posted in post #3.
Anything else is guidance, recommendations, suggestions, or instructor opinion.

Yes, thanks...I did read that but somehow elongated this thread. I guess I read into the OP's question as being if he could throw on a 7 mil wetsuit and float there like a cork. I just never saw any neutral weighting done (as the standard says is OK). Then we got on the drown-proofing thing.
I recall from years ago reading many opinions, guidences, etc. as you point out. But usually more so about the 200 meter swim than the float.
Somewhere deep in the anals of Going Pro thread is my own list of how I would re-vamp the 4 DM Watermanship Tests to make them more practical to show ability, "comfortability" (not my favourite word) and relationship to what you'll be doing or may have to do in an emergency as a DM. But, just a bunch my own opinions.
Comfortability can mean different things to different instructors.
You've got a class of 10 taking the swim test.....
2 have perfect strokes as they were on swim teams or are "real" swimmers.
6 swing their heads side to side on each arm stroke, but do OK finishing the 200.
2 have terrible form, switch "strokes" and make it to the finish line just short of a coronary.
ALL PASS. The only ones that "failed" were the very rare ones who could not even finish.
Which ones are showing "comfortability".
(And, I was usually in charge of keeping lap counts for 6-10 swimmers while the instructor gets his shorty on in the locker room-- of course if you lose count, there's always the honor system....)
Thanks for listening. I just can't resist writing about a certain few topics.

 

[Scott]

That's the quoted standard I recall. Actually, a student did ask a while ago if they could "swim" a little during the "float". I believe consensus was yes. That would mean what you (jokingly?) propose may actually be "legal". Does it say anywhere the 2 tests can't be done at the same time.....?!

Yes I was joking.
It doesn't say you can or can't. I do think it would be a stretch to have QC buy off on that one, but hey, I've seen stranger things happen.

I may have to fire off an email, just to see if I can get a LOL from the mothership.

 

[TMHeimer]

The 2009 Instructor Manual only lists having a personal copy of the IM as recommended for the DM student, but required that the student have access to one during and after the class.
The 2010 IM was listed as required for the DM student to have a personal copy.

Thanks again. So I was actually right about the old course requirement as was the shop. They are a fine shop, and I was surprised that someone on SB said they were wrong back then.
The "access" to one made sense to me back then. I mean, you had your 20 (now 24) basic skills that an instructor has to check off for each student. Certain skills had to be taught on certain CW dives, others were flexible. DMs know how to demonstrate them and can be assigned to help a student before returning them to the instructor. I am remiss in not knowing a lot of the standards word for word, but I felt there were certain aspects of the OW course that I really didn't have to have memorized. Basically, I did what the instructor asked of me. Had I seen a gross violation--such as doing the OW dives in 70' of water with no training buoy, I would have reported that. Nothing like that ever grabbed my attention in my 4 years. I didn't feel it was in my best interest to report that instructor that didn't allow drown-proofing on the tread (besides, everyone passed anyway). She was a fine OW instructor, and my instructor when I took OW.

 

[Diving Dubai]

I also think that since drown proofing is taught by US Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard, that it is certainly a valid in-water survival technique outside of a pool.

Perhaps, and they also tie the students ankles and wrists - Send me a video when you do that to your students (I've been tempted)
But in all seriousness. I don't care how a student floats. As long as they do it and don't panic. I would rather they show some comfort and use a technique they they'd be comfortable with in open water. Generally I sit on the side of the pool and chat.

I included the technique about floating in a BCD in open water - because that's what we're preparing them for right? Kit on and off - for us is done off the side of a boat in 6 - 10m of water, so you want to see some comfort before you get that far. I'd rather have someone freak out in a pool than in open water.

I have empathy for all poor swimmers. I detest swimming, I had to grit my teeth and "man up" to get through DM water skills. I'm negative in freshwater. If I can do it anyone can.

 

[TMHeimer]

Perhaps, and they also tie the students ankles and wrists - Send me a video when you do that to your students (I've been tempted)
But in all seriousness. I don't care how a student floats. As long as they do it and don't panic. I would rather they show some comfort and use a technique they they'd be comfortable with in open water. Generally I sit on the side of the pool and chat.

I included the technique about floating in a BCD in open water - because that's what we're preparing them for right? Kit on and off - for us is done off the side of a boat in 6 - 10m of water, so you want to see some comfort before you get that far. I'd rather have someone freak out in a pool than in open water.

I have empathy for all poor swimmers. I detest swimming, I had to grit my teeth and "man up" to get through DM water skills. I'm negative in freshwater. If I can do it anyone can.

Well hey, though we've butted heads a bit here, I think we are exactly on the same page. As I posted, I'm not a fan of "comfortability", but that is what it's all about--making sure a new diver is not at real risk of killing themselves. Interesting that I consider myself extremely comfortable in water since childhood. Yet I couldn't finish the DM tread without drown-proofing. A few of the students I saw when I was assisting were nowhere near as "comfortable". I don't really detest swimming, just find the greatest exercise known to man to be extremely boring. I was on the HS swim team 40 years ago but had only snorkeled the 4 decades since--then got the shock of my life in having to re-train my mechanics to score a "3" on the DM 400. It's boring because all you're looking at is pool sides and bottoms. Both my brothers are competitive swimmers and their help to get me back on track was appreciated. I haven't "swam" since the test, and don't plan to, but I do at least know why my mechanics were so off.
I mentioned I feel PADI can be vague at times with their standards. There is no mention of drown-proofing. You're not in favor of it, while I think it's a good tool if you happen to get stuck by yourself in the middle of Lake Superior. Perhaps NAUI has a better approach giving instructors more leeway in determines what's acceptable to pass. Perhaps not.
I think we've usually agreed on a lot of things.

 

[tursiops]

The padi website says it's a tread test

Where does it say that? The standards for the course do NOT mention "tread," it is called "swim/float".