PADI/NAUI Issues with DIR Techniques?

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For those of you who believe that DIR-F is what should be taught in OW class, I have a question ...

Given the high ratio of students who do not pass DIR-F the first time around ... how would you tell an OW student to "go practice your skills for a few months and come back for a re-eval" ???

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
NWGratefulDiver:
For those of you who believe that DIR-F is what should be taught in OW class, I have a question ...

Given the high ratio of students who do not pass DIR-F the first time around ... how would you tell an OW student to "go practice your skills for a few months and come back for a re-eval" ???
How about telling them, "Good job this weekend. I'll see you next weekend when we continue class," instead of "Good job this weekend, here's your c-card!"
 
For what it's worth . . .
I used a B/P-wing, long hose primary and bungied secondary in my D/M classes and the PADI instructors had no issues with it.

After having completed the gear exchange/buddy breathing portion of the class, the instructors commented on how much more easily the tasks were completed by using the long hose primary to share while buddy breathing and then doing the final swim to a shallow area.

One step at a time . . . just one step at a time .

the K
 
Otter:
I am guessing you misread my post as I was saying that I didn't believe a BP/W was for tech only...lor maybe I am not understanding where we are in disagreement?

Craig
Hi Craig,
We're not in disagreement at all. Sorry, my post came out the way it did...it was me misreading your post...sorry 'bout that.


best,
brando
 
cornfed:
How about telling them, "Good job this weekend. I'll see you next weekend when we continue class," instead of "Good job this weekend, here's your c-card!"
Fair enough ... and when the shop pays you $50 per student for these classes ... and you've already spent two weeks of class/pool time ... how many week-ends would you be willing to devote to these students in order to get them up to DIR-F standards?

As an instructor who's genuinely interested in turning out good divers, I'd really like to know if there's a realistic way to meet the expectation. I'm always willing to work with my students, but there is a practical limit to my time. I know how many hours of practice I had to put in before I could satisfy the standards of the class ... and the same went for every student who took it with me (no one passed on the first attempt).

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
NWGratefulDiver:
Fair enough ... and when the shop pays you $50 per student for these classes ... and you've already spent two weeks of class/pool time ... how many week-ends would you be willing to devote to these students in order to get them up to DIR-F standards?
This won't work under that model. The shop (and not just the instructor) needs to be interested in turning out quality students. They need to be willing to pay their instructors enough to do so. Geez, Bob I thought you took fundies. Remember all that talk about "holistic system". ;)

My assumption is that someone who passes GUE OW will have the same skills as someone who passes DIR-F. I believe this a very real possibility. The problem is it doesn't fit the weekend wonder paradigm which is so come these days. But that's the point. GUE's concept for OW isn't a problem, it's a solution.
 
cornfed:
This won't work under that model. The shop (and not just the instructor) needs to be interested in turning out quality students. They need to be willing to pay their instructors enough to do so. Geez, Bob I thought you took fundies. Remember all that talk about "holistic system". ;)

My assumption is that someone who passes GUE OW will have the same skills as someone who passes DIR-F. I believe this a very real possibility. The problem is it doesn't fit the weekend wonder paradigm which is so come these days. But that's the point. GUE's concept for OW isn't a problem, it's a solution.

Yeah, I know what you're saying ... but I see it more as dreams than reality. The guys who are attempting it are more used to dealing with the highly motivated minority than they are the diving public at large ... and those are two very different target demographics.

As someone who works, week in and week out, with recreational students, I'm of the opinion that until the entire industry does an expectation reset, teaching DIR-F skills in OW won't work as a practical business model. It's simply too costly and time-consuming to appeal to a market that generally views it as an unnecessary commodity. That, I believe, is why after two years of talking about a GUE OW class, it still hasn't happened yet.

I'm out there nearly every week-end at our area's most popular teaching site. The shops with 20+ students ... week in and week out ... are the ones who offer the $100 self-study classes. Those, like the shop I work for, who offer a more expensive, more comprehensive class, typically have 2 or 3 students.

Yeah, I know all about the holistic system ... the real problem isn't the class concept, it's one of customer expectations. Try telling someone who knows nothing ... and cares even less ... about quality instruction why they should pay $400 for an OW class that spans multiple weeks when they can drive down the street to your competitor, pay $100, and be certified by next week-end. There's a reason for the current dismal state of OW instruction, and it's largely customer-driven.

No matter how you explain it to them, you'll get a very small minority who'll be interested in paying more, either in dollars or in time, for a quality education ... most simply want the C-card for as little time, effort, and money as possible.

I'm very interested in seeing how ... or if ... they manage to do it. Suffice it to say I'm skeptical ... and believe that the difficulties involved in competing against the "Walmart" approach to instruction is the reason it's been discussed for more than two years now without becoming a reality.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
NWGratefulDiver:
As someone who works, week in and week out, with recreational students, I'm of the opinion that until the entire industry does an expectation reset, teaching DIR-F skills in OW won't work as a practical business model.
People seem to be able to make it work. Brando is one of them. I'm not sure of the but have you seen the pictures from his classes?

NWGratefulDiver:
I'm very interested in seeing how ... or if ...
Not "if", when... which will be mid-November. There was an announcement back in June about some upcoming GUE ITCs and the OW class was listed for November... and yes, that's this November.
 
cornfed:
People seem to be able to make it work. Brando is one of them. I'm not sure of the but have you seen the pictures from his classes?

Hopefully we can get some input from instructors who do make it work. How much do you charge? How many hours do you spend in the pool? How do you perform in-water skills? That sort of thing ...

cornfed:
Not "if", when... which will be mid-November. There was an announcement back in June about some upcoming GUE ITCs and the OW class was listed for November... and yes, that's this November.
With all due respect, when I first heard about this class it was "announced" to be targeted for January 2004. But I hope you're right ... I would love to see it happen. I'd even sign up to take the class, just to see how they manage it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
cornfed:
Not "if", when... which will be mid-November. There was an announcement back in June about some upcoming GUE ITCs and the OW class was listed for November... and yes, that's this November.
As in real OW classes, using GUE material and issuing a GUE OW cert? Or just more meetings and discussions about how to do an OW class.

The other thing an OW class will need is some decent written material. The DIR-F handouts I've seen (2003 Version 1) were pretty skimpy.

NWGratefuldiver:
As an instructor who's genuinely interested in turning out good divers, I'd really like to know if there's a realistic way to meet the expectation. I'm always willing to work with my students, but there is a practical limit to my time. I know how many hours of practice I had to put in before I could satisfy the standards of the class ... and the same went for every student who took it with me (no one passed on the first attempt).

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
The GUE OW course may indeed be more expensive, but then again, GUE doesn't have many instructors and won't be ready to handle any more than a tiny fraction of all new certifications. My expectation is that it will be a quality course that is significantly more expensive and time consuming that the OW courses by other agencies.
 

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