PADI gave member info to US Government

[Northeastwrecks]

oh, are we friendly now?

No, we are not friendly. I'm only friendly to people I respect.

As I suggested in the thread where you were insulting Amber over her decision to join the U.S. military, you need to pull you head out long enough for a breath of fresh air.

 

[renpirate]

When I originally posted the article that started this debate, my express purpose was to get people discussing the very issue in Janko's cartoon (thanks Janko, I will be using that one in the U.S. Government course I teach.). The question is about where to draw the line between giving up liberties in exchange for security.

If you put the issue of diving records in perspective, it is not an unreasonable request by law enforcement. There is a real threat out there that must be protected against and it is the duty of the government to protect us. However, it is all too easy to sacrafice too many important liberties, especially when it concerns people other than ourselves. I personally don't mind the government collecting information, it is how it is used that concerns me. The solution to that is transperancy when possible without sacraficing too much information to our enemies and strict proccesses of governmental oversight in the remaining.

One of the greatest protections against governmental abuse is what we are doing right now, open discussion.

 

[BigJetDriver]

Daphne and Janko,

Okay! Let's stop the hypothesizing!

I am one of those people specifically targeted for checking by my own government, so rather than talking in gereralities, let's talk about specifics!

I am an IDC Staff Instructor for PADI. I am also, and of even more interest, an Intructor Trainer for IANTD, and a re-breather instructor. (Ah-hah!! An instructor in what could be utilized as bubble-less military technology...veddy interesting!!!)

Did the FBI check on me? You bet they did! Am I upset about it? You had better bet that I am NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!! They ran a check, and were satisfied. Had they come to my door to talk to me, I would have been happy to talk to them.

In the aftermath of the vicious attacks on our country, we criticized the FBI for not paying attention to reports that they received from their own agents in the field---and RIGHTLY SO---because if investigated, those reports might have led to actions that would have prevented the horror!

Now, we find them being more pro-active, and I for one say: "It's about bloody time!"

Yesterday was the third anniversary of the vicious and cowardly attack that murdered thousands of our citizens in the heart of our most populous city.

I note that one of you is Swiss, and one is Canadian.

Three thousand of your fellow citizens did not perish in flame and thunder in Ontario, or Basel. You have been spared the horror,---FOR NOW.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that you are not on the list for attacks by the Islamo-fascists. You are still the infidel, and your way of life is still unacceptable to them.---(Educated women who work outside the home and are not covered head to foot are an extreme abomination, for instance, in their view.)---You both are just lower priority targets!

We are trying our best to do what must be done to take the fight to the enemy without trampling on basic liberties that we, as a nation, hold sacred. This is a tough tight-rope for anyone to walk.

Make no mistake. We are in a fight to the finish. Our enemies have shown that they have NO compunctions WHATSOEVER. As they did in Beslan, they will murder children by shooting them in the back, and blasting them with bombs in order to advance their terrorist agenda.

If you do not understand the message they are sending with their bombs, bullets, and savagery, you are simply not living in the real world!

As posted by Renpirate:

"The question is about where to draw the line between giving up liberties in exchange for security."

This is a question that is as important now as it was when our founding fathers began the process! We must all be aware that it is, as I stated, like walking a tight-rope. A good balance is hard to find.

Cheers!

 

[Janko]

BigJetDiver,

You didn't mind talking to the FBI about your diving records, much for the same reason I as a Canadian can afford to have the point of view that what the US is doing to its people's privacy and liberty is wrong: you weren't the target of their particular investigation much like I wasn't the target on Sept. 11, 2001.

You weren't dragged to Guantanamo Bay or held against your will for interrogation like hundreds of other INNOCENT people have been since 2001 and I wasn't blown to hell by airplanes crashing into my city of residence. It's all academic until it happens to you, so for us, hypothesizing is as real as it can get.

What our governments do to protect us is all great as long as they don't think WE are what the country needs to be protected against. They have made, and will continue to make mistakes in who they choose to abuse in the name of national security and it's all great until it happens to you.

Eventually some agency might think you have something they need for some national security end, and the well-meaning evil that will ensue against you (or you son, or your wife) will be perceived by your neighbour down the street as a necessary means to their safe end. That would suck for you, I guess. But hey, your neighbours will feel safer because at least someone is getting the shakedown for their benefit.

How would you like to be taken for FBI questioning for 7 hours because you are an Arab taking photos of a large bridge in NYC? Or because you are a Pakistani young man taking photos of a university campus? (BTW, both these cases are real.) This is outrageous and saving a few lives at the expense of thousands of these innocent people is not just.

In any case, since nobody involved in this discussion strikes me as dim, here is the larger picture as much of the world and I think too few Americans see it:

America will not win this bitter "war on terror" alone - on its own, the best it can hope for is a stalemate. The US will not get any help from other progressive nations like Canada, Germany, France, dozens of others, until it learns to accept the 3rd party perspectives of those nations, even if Sept. 11 didnt happen to those third parties. Many Americans currently toss aside other perspectives by conveying what you did in your post: "you weren't the target so you don't know what it's like". This is an appeal to emotion, not to reason.

I respect your country, and I don't have a blanket hatred of it in any way. America still is a powerful and incredible nation today; it is a haven for many millions. I have always gone out of my way to defend its international balls of steel and its unmatched patriotism but it's time to step out of the coccoon and accept what much of the world is sees in the United States of America: a bitter, angry, ailing and weak shadow of what the country used to be, and WAS AS LATE AS Sept. 10, 2001. It ain't pretty and much of the world feels sorry America's people.

Anyway.... I don't mean to be insulting to anyone on this board, and I'm not trying to be inflammatory. I'm trying to articulate in reasonable terms what people are trying but are too frustrated to articulate when they say "I hate Americans."

By the way, "I hate Americans" is something I loathe hearing and fiercely rebut. :42:

 

[Janko]

I'll shut up now, heh.

 

[scubafool]

Janko, I think that you have made some good points. I also think that you are wrong in feeling that America is a shadow of it's former self. While I do not agree with everything that my country has done since 9/11, I think that the underlying spirit of America has not changed for the worse. I hold firm to the belief that in the end, my country will eventually correct the mistakes we have made & move on.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Doc,

Isn't this the non-diving related forum?

Janko,

This is taken from the Scuba Board Terms of Service Agreement, paragraph 4:

"While we encourage discussion about a wide range of subjects, there are certain areas which elicit more animosity and subsequently far more flames. Consequently we ask that discussions involving politics and nationalities or anything of a sexual nature be reserved for other message boards that are better venues for these topics."

For details click FAQ at the bottom of the page, then on TOS.

Cordially,

Doc

 

[renpirate]

Janko, I think that you have made some good points. I also think that you are wrong in feeling that America is a shadow of it's former self. While I do not agree with everything that my country has done since 9/11, I think that the underlying spirit of America has not changed for the worse. I hold firm to the belief that in the end, my country will eventually correct the mistakes we have made & move on.

I would like to second that Scubafool. The history of our country has shown that we are very resilliant to adverse conditions. We also are very good at airing our dirty laundry and correcting mistakes. What happened at Abu Grahib was unexcusable, but nothing compared to the tortures that are routinely metted out in numerous other countries(many of whom serve on the UN Human Rights Commision). However, the whole nation debated it, found it unexcusable, and is in the process of punishing the guilty, which will reach higher in time. It will take the passage of time to examine this period with a more objective view.

If you wish to see American in the light of pre 9/11 glory, then watch who is leading the charge to stop another Genocide in Darfur. I think the thing that annoys my fellow Americans, and myself, the most is the sheer hypocrisy that the world too often shows towards us. Why aren't the other civilized countries of the world standing firm in unity against a scourage that they collectively condemned in 1948?

 

[underwater daphne]

BigJetDiver,

You didn't mind talking to the FBI about your diving records, much for the same reason I as a Canadian can afford to have the point of view that what the US is doing to its people's privacy and liberty is wrong: you weren't the target of their particular investigation much like I wasn't the target on Sept. 11, 2001.

You weren't dragged to Guantanamo Bay or held against your will for interrogation like hundreds of other INNOCENT people have been since 2001 and I wasn't blown to hell by airplanes crashing into my city of residence. It's all academic until it happens to you, so for us, hypothesizing is as real as it can get.

What our governments do to protect us is all great as long as they don't think WE are what the country needs to be protected against. They have made, and will continue to make mistakes in who they choose to abuse in the name of national security and it's all great until it happens to you.

Eventually some agency might think you have something they need for some national security end, and the well-meaning evil that will ensue against you (or you son, or your wife) will be perceived by your neighbour down the street as a necessary means to their safe end. That would suck for you, I guess. But hey, your neighbours will feel safer because at least someone is getting the shakedown for their benefit.

How would you like to be taken for FBI questioning for 7 hours because you are an Arab taking photos of a large bridge in NYC? Or because you are a Pakistani young man taking photos of a university campus? (BTW, both these cases are real.) This is outrageous and saving a few lives at the expense of thousands of these innocent people is not just.

In any case, since nobody involved in this discussion strikes me as dim, here is the larger picture as much of the world and I think too few Americans see it:

America will not win this bitter "war on terror" alone - on its own, the best it can hope for is a stalemate. The US will not get any help from other progressive nations like Canada, Germany, France, dozens of others, until it learns to accept the 3rd party perspectives of those nations, even if Sept. 11 didnt happen to those third parties. Many Americans currently toss aside other perspectives by conveying what you did in your post: "you weren't the target so you don't know what it's like". This is an appeal to emotion, not to reason.

I respect your country, and I don't have a blanket hatred of it in any way. America still is a powerful and incredible nation today; it is a haven for many millions. I have always gone out of my way to defend its international balls of steel and its unmatched patriotism but it's time to step out of the coccoon and accept what much of the world is sees in the United States of America: a bitter, angry, ailing and weak shadow of what the country used to be, and WAS AS LATE AS Sept. 10, 2001. It ain't pretty and much of the world feels sorry America's people.

Anyway.... I don't mean to be insulting to anyone on this board, and I'm not trying to be inflammatory. I'm trying to articulate in reasonable terms what people are trying but are too frustrated to articulate when they say "I hate Americans."

By the way, "I hate Americans" is something I loathe hearing and fiercely rebut. :42:

wow, that is exactly how i feel.

Daphne,

Allow me to pose a few rhetorical questions.

Do you feel strongly about your views regarding politics, say, or religion?

With respect to the former I would suspect 'yes', in part due to the tag line beneath your name which identifies you as a 'Swiss Pacifist'.

Have you noticed any tendencies on ScubaBoard where heated arguments occasionally erupt over scuba topics such as pony bottles, wing size, or DIR?

I suspect that in part these occur because people feel strongly about their views with respect to diving.

Arguments about diving, however, at least belong on a board dedicated to scuba diving.

Arguments about politics and religion, though, do not.

Some people might think that your tagline of 'Swiss Pacifist' was a tad provocative. In other words, why not "Swiss Diver". Or "Malay Diver". Or "European Diver".

If I had a tagline beneath my name that said "Handgun Advocate", would you consider that tagline a tad provocative?

Do you suspect you and I could have a chat about our respective views on either politics or handguns that might turn into a heated debate?

This subject - diver records turned over to the government - clearly skirts right on the line and I'm not suggesting that it is inappropriate to discuss it.

But I think its also appropriate to keep it from spreading into a larger discussion over politics, international affairs, terrorism, or immigration and border protection.

And, I assume you and I continue to remain friendly now.

Regards,

Doc

nah, i only used swiss pacifist because someone called me a "swiss pacifist". and that was kinda weird, because as you have clearly noticed i am anything else but a pacifist or i would have kept my mouth shut on the topics that disturbed me. but you're right, it might give ppl the wrong impression, so i'll actual change that as it was, as explained, meant as a provocation and i didn't really take that seriously, i thought it was funny that someone would call me that. i don't care for politics either, i just worry about the world sometimes.

i don't see why i should not be friendly with anyone. i'm stating an opinion i'm not saying i don't like or respect anyone personally, i don't know anyone here.

i'm not american, almost everyone else here is, so of course i'm the black sheep, coz i can't think like an american, i can try, but i'll never be able to feel the same. and that's where things get ugly, coz i think sooo differently and in my eyes you think so differently. and the things you think is wrong might be things that i think is right and vis versa. it doesn't harm to hear what other ppl in the world think though. i know i have a harsh way of expressing myself, but it's a problem of how i say things, not necessarily what.

oh and if anyone doesn't want to be friendly to me coz he disrespects me, then that's fine. it's up to you really and i don't really care. you can't intimidate me.

 

[underwater daphne]

Do not make the mistake of thinking that you are not on the list for attacks by the Islamo-fascists. You are still the infidel, and your way of life is still unacceptable to them.---(Educated women who work outside the home and are not covered head to foot are an extreme abomination, for instance, in their view.)---You both are just lower priority targets!

We are trying our best to do what must be done to take the fight to the enemy without trampling on basic liberties that we, as a nation, hold sacred. This is a tough tight-rope for anyone to walk.

Make no mistake. We are in a fight to the finish. Our enemies have shown that they have NO compunctions WHATSOEVER. As they did in Beslan, they will murder children by shooting them in the back, and blasting them with bombs in order to advance their terrorist agenda.

If you do not understand the message they are sending with their bombs, bullets, and savagery, you are simply not living in the real world!

why do i suddenly feel sick? islamo fascists??
so your only and our only enemies are moslem extremists??? being a moslem extremist doesn't mean you want to kill ppl. and some ppl actually like being covered from head to foot. it's a part of their belief and culture. not all of them want to be freed from who they are.
beslan? do you know how the russians have been treating them for many years?

If you do not understand the message they are sending with their bombs, bullets, and savagery, you are simply not living in the real world!

what message would that be? your solution? gas all moslems? will that make you feel better?
what message are you sending with your bombs, bullets, torture etc?