PADI gave member info to US Government

[underwater daphne]

if that's the way you see it, yes.

 

[Web Monkey]

I had not read this before so it was news to me. Here is an article from MSNBC about how PADI, without a warrant, voluntarily gave personal information about all members to the FBI.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5737239/

And the worst part is that they even say they would do it again!

So what's the problem?

If the government getting certification records might save lives, I'm all for it.

Terry

 

[Janko]

So what's the problem?

If the government getting certification records might save lives, I'm all for it.

Terry

Most shortsighted approach ever.

 

[Potapko]

Now, this isn't entirely true is it? We also travel throughout Europe and the level of control has certainly lessened, however every car in front of us as well as those following us, (and us) are stopped 50% of the time at least to look at the passports.

No reason to exagerate. However I have heard the same from Czech people. they say "If America wants all of that information including fingerprints I will never go there"

Others however say the opposite. "It is America's business what they require of visitors. If I want to go to America I will give them what they want"

I agree fully with tough policies at the borders, I 100% disagree when it comes to the control of citizens within those borders. How long will it be before there are checkpoints at state crossings? It's coming, believe it or not.

Personally, it is only a sign of the times so it doesn't particularly bother me, I am listening for the trumpet!

 

[underwater daphne]

now without wanting to be rude or say that i agree with these methods, a CH car is less likely to be stopped than a CZ. so i'll put it this way, swiss cars can travel around most of europe quite freely. it might have something to do with the car, the way the ppl inside look, etc but i go to germany 2-3 times a month and show my pass maybe once every few months. they make no note of who i am, nor do they check the computer.
personally i prefer this method, than having my passport chopped everytime i go shopping. being malay i know what it's like to go through difficult immigration policies. we have this everytime we cross the boarder to singapore. malaysia isn't making it easier for singaporeans either. everytime you have to fill out 1-2 forms with name, purpose of entry, length of stay, adress in the other country etc. you might just be going to a concert in the other country which is only a kilometer away. your passports gets chopped to go in and to go out. if a chop is missing, you're in big trouble.
it would be horrible if the whole world would start using these methods and america is beginning with it.

why should they know what i'm doing if i'm doing it within the law? innocent until proven guilty and not the otherway round.
same goes for divers, not every diver is a potential terrorist.

so yes, you're right. what i said wasn't quite true.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

why should they know what i'm doing if i'm doing it within the law? innocent until proven guilty and not the otherway round.
same goes for divers, not every diver is a potential terrorist.

so yes, you're right. what i said wasn't quite true.

Identifying who is visiting our country and the purpose of their visit does not interfere with the presumption of innocence. Instead, it allows law enforcement to identify potential problems and allows us to enforce our laws.

All you need to do is look at the various pictures on the news sites to see the pictures of the attack and realize that perhaps, just perhaps, we have a reason to be concerned. You can argue about the reasons, but the concern remains.

When I travelled to Norway last year on business, I was questioned about the purpose of my visit in both Iceland and in Norway. It was quite friendly, and much more pleasant than what I experienced when I came back to the U.S. (on September 11, 2003, what a great day to travel), but it wasn't as lax as you suggest.

No one, not even the FBI, is suggesting that every diver is a potential terrorist. While I don't necessarily agree with their methodology, I would not be surprised if someone eventually wanted to know why I've got T-bottles of compressed gas in my garage. I would also not be scared or worried about it.

 

[underwater daphne]

Identifying who is visiting our country and the purpose of their visit does not interfere with the presumption of innocence. Instead, it allows law enforcement to identify potential problems and allows us to enforce our laws.

All you need to do is look at the various pictures on the news sites to see the pictures of the attack and realize that perhaps, just perhaps, we have a reason to be concerned. You can argue about the reasons, but the concern remains.

When I travelled to Norway last year on business, I was questioned about the purpose of my visit in both Iceland and in Norway. It was quite friendly, and much more pleasant than what I experienced when I came back to the U.S. (on September 11, 2003, what a great day to travel), but it wasn't as lax as you suggest.

No one, not even the FBI, is suggesting that every diver is a potential terrorist. While I don't necessarily agree with their methodology, I would not be surprised if someone eventually wanted to know why I've got T-bottles of compressed gas in my garage. I would also not be scared or worried about it.

oh, are we friendly now?

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Daphne,

Allow me to pose a few rhetorical questions.

Do you feel strongly about your views regarding politics, say, or religion?

With respect to the former I would suspect 'yes', in part due to the tag line beneath your name which identifies you as a 'Swiss Pacifist'.

Have you noticed any tendencies on ScubaBoard where heated arguments occasionally erupt over scuba topics such as pony bottles, wing size, or DIR?

I suspect that in part these occur because people feel strongly about their views with respect to diving.

Arguments about diving, however, at least belong on a board dedicated to scuba diving.

Arguments about politics and religion, though, do not.

Some people might think that your tagline of 'Swiss Pacifist' was a tad provocative. In other words, why not "Swiss Diver". Or "Malay Diver". Or "European Diver".

If I had a tagline beneath my name that said "Handgun Advocate", would you consider that tagline a tad provocative?

Do you suspect you and I could have a chat about our respective views on either politics or handguns that might turn into a heated debate?

This subject - diver records turned over to the government - clearly skirts right on the line and I'm not suggesting that it is inappropriate to discuss it.

But I think its also appropriate to keep it from spreading into a larger discussion over politics, international affairs, terrorism, or immigration and border protection.

And, I assume you and I continue to remain friendly now.

Regards,

Doc

 

[Janko]

Doc,

Isn't this the non-diving related forum?

 

[BigJetDriver]

Daphne and Janko,

Okay! Let's stop the hypothesizing!

I am one of those people specifically targeted for checking by my own government, so rather than talking in gereralities, let's talk about specifics!

I am an IDC Staff Instructor for PADI. I am also, and of even more interest, an Intructor Trainer for IANTD, and a re-breather instructor. (Ah-hah!! An instructor in what could be utilized as bubble-less military technology...veddy interesting!!!)

Did the FBI check on me? You bet they did! Am I upset about it? You had better bet that I am NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!! They ran a check, and were satisfied. Had they come to my door to talk to me, I would have been happy to talk to them.

In the aftermath of the vicious attacks on our country, we criticized the FBI for not paying attention to reports that they received from their own agents in the field---and RIGHTLY SO---because if investigated, those reports might have led to actions that would have prevented the horror!

Now, we find them being more pro-active, and I for one say: "It's about bloody time!"

Yesterday was the third anniversary of the vicious and cowardly attack that murdered thousands of our citizens in the heart of our most populous city.

I note that one of you is Swiss, and one is Canadian.

Three thousand of your fellow citizens did not perish in flame and thunder in Ontario, or Basel. You have been spared the horror,---FOR NOW.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that you are not on the list for attacks by the Islamo-fascists. You are still the infidel, and your way of life is still unacceptable to them.---(Educated women who work outside the home and are not covered head to foot are an extreme abomination, for instance, in their view.)---You both are just lower priority targets!

We are trying our best to do what must be done to take the fight to the enemy without trampling on basic liberties that we, as a nation, hold sacred. This is a tough tight-rope for anyone to walk.

Make no mistake. We are in a fight to the finish. Our enemies have shown that they have NO compunctions WHATSOEVER. As they did in Beslan, they will murder children by shooting them in the back, and blasting them with bombs in order to advance their terrorist agenda.

If you do not understand the message they are sending with their bombs, bullets, and savagery, you are simply not living in the real world!