PADI eBusiness - Atomic Online - 800 Pound Gorilla in the Room

[PhilEllis]

Ok so will the student will receive a Username and Password, log onto a specific e-learning section of the PADI website and proceed to read an online manual, fill in knowledge reviews and do exams online, which are then sent to the dive center? So basically instead of coming into the shop, picking up a manual, and going home and reading the manual and filling out the knowledge reviews, then turning up for class, she does the reading and knowledge reviews and exams online but still turns up for some shorter classes? Or will we just do away with the academic classes altogether?

You have the idea. Remember, PADI doesn't completely know how it will flow, but common sense would lead us to some logical conclusions. It could be either of the ideas you advanced. The student would get a password and would use the computer just like the "book". What would be different from the current situation is the record keeping. PADI would maintain that. PADI (throught the online program provider) would administer the final exam. Remember, the student will be in contact with the dive center almost immediately after the sign-up begins. An instructor might choose to add some additional academic sessions or might choose not to add them, but to go directly to the pool. In any event, the student (upon compeletion of the online course) would get a printed referral document, just like the current referrals used to send a confined student to a different open-water checkout instructor. In the end, remember the local scuba instructor IS STILL TEACHING the customer how to scuba dive. The instructor would maintain all of the ability to adjust as they currently have.

Might be ok for PADI and the dive centers. Not so flash for the student if he/she picks a crap dive center with a crap instructor. The problem with not being able to meet your instructor before you sign up and pay is that you don’t know what you are getting. At least a face to face meeting with an instructor gives the student the potential to interview him/her first. Not so good for us indy instructors either but hey thems the breaks

I cannot possibly see how it is not good for the student. The student gets to do the academic learning they way they choose.....on the internet. If they don't want to do it on the internet, I can't imagine why they would sign up for a class on the internet.

The other proposition you offer----crap dive center and crap instructor, importance of customer meeting the instructor in advance-----is one of the biggest straw men openly discussed on chat boards about scuba instuction. In MOST cases, a potential student would not have the capability to tell a good instructor from a bad one. When it comes to signing up for classes in a dive center, most new students don't even meet the instructor in advance. They sign up, make their purchases, and are scheduled for a class. I personally have NEVER had a customer ask to "interview" one of my instructors prior to class. We teach in excess of 150 open water students per year, so if this was a common practice, I would expect to have had at least ONE customer make this request. I think our customers take a look around our store, make observations about how the place is operated and maintained, and develp an opinion of how the course might be operated (and the quality of the staff of the store, including instructors) based on the first-hand impressions of the sales person helping them sign up for the class.

On the issue of independent instructors, I think PADI will be forced to develop some type of system that allows independent instructors to get referrals from the online program. Of course, if an independent is really serious, they can establish themselves as a business. And by that I don't mean getting some business cards. I mean a proper license in their city, county, and state. Obtaining general liability insurance in addition to the professional insurance. All of the 'stuff' that goes along with being in business.

Thanks,

Phil Ellis

 

[PhilEllis]

I think that the misconception here maybe that potential OW students do a lot of homework before picking an LDS. Some do, but the majority, no way. :shakehead

They generally get referred by a buddy who's brother used LDS X in 1972, and blablabla. They walk in the door, and don't have a clue about what is involved or how much time it takes, much less how to judge an instructor.

In our area the instructors are NOT going to be there unless you go on a weekend or evening, and then they are busy instructing! So the potential students are not meeting the instructors in any event.

I think the other thing people fail to realize is that a LOT of divers just want to get certified so they can dive, and have zero idea about the quality instruction they are getting.

It's rather premature to judge how this new online program is going to work. For example can the student read instructor Bio's online, Shop information whatever? Do they pay BEFORE picking an LDS? What if the LDS is booked solid, or they hate the instructor, can they change shops?

If I could only see the future!

In my view, the student will finish the online course and will get a printed referral document. They will be free to go to any store they choose with that document, just like they can today if they possess a referral from an instructor. Remember, this is commerce, not prison. NO AGENCY or INSTRUCTOR can tell the student what to do. In the first place, they aren't students....they are customers. Customer can do as they please.......including changing instructors in mid stream if that is their choice.

I agree with all of your other comments. I just made them in another response prior to reading further and seeing yours. Thanks.

Phil Ellis

 

[PhilEllis]

I just remembered one more thing............

Reading this thread and many, many others on this chatboard and others brings me to a thought that I have often, but don't voice because of the fire-storm it often creates. We take this scuba diving business and all of its surroundings, including instruction, WAY too serious. This is a safe sport. Were it not, we would see an AMAZING number of injuries and deaths. As scuba divers (already trained and experienced) we take the "well-being" of potential newcomers to our sport WAY too serious. Let me give you a couple of examples......

When someone new comes on and says "I am new and about to purchase my first set of scuba gear", they immediately get dozens of warnings not to purchase too fast, rent a lot before you buy, get a BP/W set-up, or whatever other grave warning seem necessary to protect the newbies from themselves and those "dishonest dive centers". Why do we do this? A new student, wanting to purchase some dive equipment and experiencing the same implulse to "own" the stuff that we all experienced....is smart enough not to be taken to the cleaners. Some pay too much, in OUR opinions. Some by gear that WE wouldn't choose. But then, it really isn't our business is it? They are free and grown. If they purchase wrong, it will not be the last "wasteful" purchase them make. Most dive store retails will not rob them....they will give them pretty good stuff for their money. If they pull out the credit card and make a full-retail purchase, remember, that is their choice. Remember this is commerce. A dive store is going to try to sell them when they express an interest to buy. Dive center owners and employees are no different from you. We do stuff (selling dive gear) to make a living.

We also take the instruction WAY too serious. I agree, a student needs good quality instruction. However, that doesn't require the student to get DETAILED information about any particular part of this science. It requires the learning of some essential skills and the absorption of a limited amount of academic knowledge. If you mention short, weekend courses, the participants on chat boards come unglued. They automatically assume that each customer needs some long, detailed, college level course to be safe. They always quote as "proof" of their position all of the people they see on boat "doing all manner of things wrong and unsafe". But lets face it......even with all of the "too fast", "rushed" instruction out there, courses conducted by "bad, lazy instructors", the injury and accident rate is absurdly low. Thats why an instructors professional liability insurance is still so low...compared to other types of insurance.....the rate of accidents and the resulting claims are very low in our industry.

My store conducts ONLY weekend classes. We certify students in two weekends....much shorter than many of the "purists" would suggest is necessary to obtain "good" instruction. Do they get as much pool time as I would like? No. Pool time costs money. But they do get enough to make them safe and to enable them to continue to learn from experience. Our students get pretty good quality instuction. From pretty good instructors. After we certify them, they continue to learn from the PRIMARY MEANS OF LEARNING TO DIVE........diving with other divers and gaining additional knowledge through participation......exactly like you and I learned to dive and honed our skills. After all, it must be a pretty good method. We all turned out to be great divers in this same system.

Guys and girls......this is commerce. Just like ANY other business. Students have money and dive stores take it. No prospective scuba student or prospective gear buyer would be surprised to learn this. I assume they already know. Its the way the world works. We don't need to worry about the sky falling because PADI is changing things around a little. In the end, it will all come out good. Anyway, my opinion.

Phil "head ducked waiting for the bombs" Ellis

 

[Thalassamania]

... Phil "head ducked waiting for the bombs" Ellis

No bombs, just a reminder that diving started in the not-for-profit world and pretty much stayed there for the first couple of decades of its history. It continues to have a strong not-for-profit vein running through it. I, for one, would like to see a system that affords mutual respect and cooperation between the for-profit and not-for-profit traditions within the diving world, but like they say, "breathe normally, don't hold your breath."

 

[Xizang]

many people who hang out in scuba chat boards (like me hehehe) are the "nerdy" computer types who research, analyze and philosopize everything to the minutest detail. I recently became a bit more full time in scuba and found out that majority of divers don't think or analyze things the way things get analyzed in this board. Most are happy to don a BC, bite a reg, have some splash around and watch the sunset When you strike a conversation or reason out with these divers in the same way you start a topic here or argue here, they kind of look at you and say "what the heck are you talking about??"

And lastly majority of them don't care about paying top dollar for a good enjoybale experience and could hardly care if the instructor or guide was wearing a long hose or if his mask was on his forehead.

We on this board are the academic scholars of the diving business and education. We have all the theories about the perfect scuba diving world that unfortunately probably 95% of the diving population do not really care about, because at the end of the day its no different from watching a movie, its just about fun.

 

[PhilEllis]

No bombs, just a reminder that diving started in the not-for-profit world and pretty much stayed there for the first couple of decades of its history. It continues to have a strong not-for-profit vein running through it. I, for one, would like to see a system that affords mutual respect and cooperation between the for-profit and not-for-profit traditions within the diving world, but like they say, "breathe normally, don't hold your breath."

Hi Thalassamania. I hear you talking about the "non-profit"agencies in scuba diving. Personally, I think this is another of those "straw men" proffered often in this industry. I assume you are talking about YScuba, NAUI, and the sort. "Non-profit" is an IRS designation, not a description of operations. The non-profit certification agencies for scuba certification operate just like many other for-profit businesses.... when the bills are paid, the payroll is met, and the management is paid, there is little or no profit left. The only difference is.....if the non-profit has some money left, they don't get taxed on it. Other than that, I pay little attention to the two distinctions. Further, getting scuba training from a "non-profit" agency is no guarantee that the quality of the training is any different. In fact, quite the opposite could easily be claimed. The "for-profit" company may well be able to produce better and more exhaustive training materials, with more frequent updates, because they participate in the "profit" sector of the business. Then again, maybe not. It all comes down to how the agencies are managed and promoted, not what type of business structure the IRS dictates. Getting training from a "non-profit" also doesn't lower the cost to the consumer.....there is no difference, other than regional and market price fluctuations, in the cost of getting training from the non-profit vs the for-profit.

Final note. I am not married to PADI or any other agency. I make the agency affiliation decisions in my business like I make the decisions on any other type of supplier......I choose the one best suited to my business model and income/profit objectives. I choose PADI because they are the biggest, with the most resources (business and legal) to assist me, and the most consumer-attractive materials.

PADI, the first for-profit scuba certification agency, has done much to promote the industry and to promote diving to the general population. I have no clue what the landscape would look like without their aggressive promotion for the past 20 years. My guess is.....not very good. "Put Another Dollar In" is often used as a slang slam against their business model and their success. Remember, when you "put another dollar in", that money goes MAINLY to the dive center and the instructors through fees and purchases. I see nothing wrong with it. We have the same slogan....."put another dollar in" for our..........cash register. And without apologies. After all, this is commerce.

Phil Ellis

 

[The Chairman]

The instructors, for the most part, aren't making any money the way it currently works. Do you envision this change helping or hurting this situation?

The best way to make a million dollars in the Dive Industry is to start with two!

As for making more money... time IS money. If I can electronically teach a student the academics, monitor their progress and consume less time then obviously, the instructor comes out ahead!

I am a NAUI instrunctor as well as an SDI/TDI instructor. The latter was the first agency to offer online academics, though Dan Nafe with www.Scuba-Training.net probably did more pioneering of it. I crossed over to SDI/TDI at the request of Bill Crumbaugh with World Water Sports so that I could teach Scuba through their Orlando store. To say that I approached the first set of students with trepidation is putting it mildly. I was more than pleasantly surprised!

Their knowledge was equal or superior to the average OW student. Now, that's not just a lot of wild speculation, that's an observation of 30 or so students. The contention that this will LOWER standards is mostly "netiphobia". I have real time measurements of what time they put into the course as well as what issues they had with the tests. As an instructor, I get to spend MY TIME with them working on the skills of diving. I really drive home safety and buddy aspects of our sport, and have had complements from other instructors on my student's abilities.

We can easily see that most people look at the internet in one of two ways:

1) Direct Competition. These people see the internet in a negative way, assuming that it can only detract from their business. To them the industry is predatory and only out for a quick buck. The pie is only SOOOOO big, and the internet is reducing their slice of it.

2) A Gold Mine. These people view the internet in a positive way, assuming that it can not only support, but increase their business dramatically. Rather than spend time shaking their collective heads over a rather bleak future, they have embraced this tool as well as it's communities in such a way as to make their future INCREDIBLY bright. If they don't like the size of their slice of the pie, they merely bake a MUCH BIGGER PIE. That's what the internet is really all about: BIGGER PIES. It's why I never see another forum or website as my competition. As Dan Nafe once put it: the tide floats us all a bit higher.

 

[pterantula]

Actualy the biggest problem that I personally have with distance learning has to do with the division of education into a have/have nots sort of situation (as is occuring) whereby, right or wrong, classroom students are the "upper class" and distance learners (who be every bit as competent) are relegated to a "lower class" social status.

This, like all things, is gradually changing. In some years to come we may well see complete social parity between "campus" educated and "couch" educated with regard to academics (some things obviously must be "campus", such as chemistry labs, etc, where tools and safety can be provided).
Today we still have top CEOs who can't use email, and then we have grizzled old professors giving podcasts, so I'm not worried. 'Class' is and in the future still will be determined by the same thing: money....

 

[GrandpaScuba]

Another problem is the students expect to be able to "cheat" in the way they have in all their other classes in school, and they are surprised when they can't. .

Actually, on-line cheating is easy. In another post, I mentioned the time I was asked to complete an on-line "test" for a job interview. All I did was open a separate window to Google and any time I didn't know an answer, I simply "googled-up" the correct answer.

 

[pterantula]

Actually, on-line cheating is easy. In another post, I mentioned the time I was asked to complete an on-line "test" for a job interview. All I did was open a separate window to Google and any time I didn't know an answer, I simply "googled-up" the correct answer.

What you're referencing is an issue with the construction of the lesson, NOT the mode of delivery. Try online cheating for this, typical of what I had to do every night for 2 years: "write a case memo (a specific format) detailing the core issues with Title VII cases in the last 10 years", or, "pick an innovation of August Vollmer's and explain why it is most relevant to modern policework in your opinion." Simpler yet, yet just as time-consuming, "explain the differences between FOB, FAS, and FCA."

The instructors are practicing litigators (even some corrections officers), who know all the published materials on the subject(s), and plagiarism is cause for expulsion.....