PADI eBusiness - Atomic Online - 800 Pound Gorilla in the Room

[The Chairman]

Actually, on-line cheating is easy. In another post, I mentioned the time I was asked to complete an on-line "test" for a job interview. All I did was open a separate window to Google and any time I didn't know an answer, I simply "googled-up" the correct answer.

Are you implying that you didn't learn anything from this?

People, lets face it: DIVING IS OPTIONAL.

People learn diving because they WANT to. Those so motivated are far less likely to cheat or even to cut corners.

But you want to consider cheats? How about the two DM candidates doing repetitive dives (8/day) by lying on a platform in Hudson Grotto for twenty minutes at a pop. They do this to get their minimum dives in for their Dive Master cert. How about the certs you merely BUY? People who stoop to cheating will do so whatever media they choose to learn in.

 

[RocketMan]

...snip...
Our students get pretty good quality instuction. From pretty good instructors.
...snip

Actually Phil, I thought you provide very high quality instuction with great instructors.

So what kind of discount can expect next time I drop buy?

 

[Azza]

You have the idea. Remember, PADI doesn't completely know how it will flow, but common sense would lead us to some logical conclusions. It could be either of the ideas you advanced. The student would get a password and would use the computer just like the "book". What would be different from the current situation is the record keeping. PADI would maintain that. PADI (throught the online program provider) would administer the final exam. Remember, the student will be in contact with the dive center almost immediately after the sign-up begins. An instructor might choose to add some additional academic sessions or might choose not to add them, but to go directly to the pool. In any event, the student (upon compeletion of the online course) would get a printed referral document, just like the current referrals used to send a confined student to a different open-water checkout instructor. In the end, remember the local scuba instructor IS STILL TEACHING the customer how to scuba dive. The instructor would maintain all of the ability to adjust as they currently have.

Excellent. Thanks for the clarification Phil. That goes a long way to easing my mind.

I cannot possibly see how it is not good for the student. The student gets to do the academic learning they way they choose.....on the internet. If they don't want to do it on the internet, I can't imagine why they would sign up for a class on the internet.

The other proposition you offer----crap dive center and crap instructor, importance of customer meeting the instructor in advance-----is one of the biggest straw men openly discussed on chat boards about scuba instuction. In MOST cases, a potential student would not have the capability to tell a good instructor from a bad one. When it comes to signing up for classes in a dive center, most new students don't even meet the instructor in advance. They sign up, make their purchases, and are scheduled for a class. I personally have NEVER had a customer ask to "interview" one of my instructors prior to class. We teach in excess of 150 open water students per year, so if this was a common practice, I would expect to have had at least ONE customer make this request. I think our customers take a look around our store, make observations about how the place is operated and maintained, and develp an opinion of how the course might be operated (and the quality of the staff of the store, including instructors) based on the first-hand impressions of the sales person helping them sign up for the class.

I agree it doesn’t happen very often, and the OW diver wannabe wouldn’t know the difference anyway, but I have been “interviewed” in some manner or other by perhaps a dozen (out of about 70 or so that I have certified) of my students before teaching. Now granted most of these were for con-ed classes but it does tell me there are some switched on people out there and they want value for money. I think however that these kinds of people will tend to avoid e-learning anyway and will shop around in the traditional manner, so no worries there.


But the risk of getting a 100 dive wonder instructor is very real. Some of these might be quite talented but I guess the reality is that an instructor doesn’t need to be a particularly flash diver to teach something like OW.
However one of the big things I have found is that a lot of these 100 dive wonder instructors (100DWI for short) were generally taught by another 100DWI. The IDC and IE isn’t particularly demanding, nor does it really have time to focus on a lot of the small details and as long as an IE candidate has a little knowledge, and can demonstrate the skills relatively well, they pass and become and Instructor.
However along the way things get left out and in turn the next 100DWI that was taught by the previous, leaves something out and the end result is that classes get poorer, and the divers get poorer along the way.
Here’s a little story;
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?p=2408990&posted=1#post2408990

On the issue of independent instructors, I think PADI will be forced to develop some type of system that allows independent instructors to get referrals from the online program. Of course, if an independent is really serious, they can establish themselves as a business. And by that I don't mean getting some business cards. I mean a proper license in their city, county, and state. Obtaining general liability insurance in addition to the professional insurance. All of the 'stuff' that goes along with being in business.

This is what I have already done although I am still in the process of setting it up. I have an incorporated company (Kiwi Divers 2006 Limited), a business number, tax number etc. As the company earns more money I will get a website set up and advertise etc.

I just remembered one more thing............

Reading this thread and many, many others on this chatboard and others brings me to a thought that I have often, but don't voice because of the fire-storm it often creates. We take this scuba diving business and all of its surroundings, including instruction, WAY too serious. This is a safe sport. Were it not, we would see an AMAZING number of injuries and deaths. As scuba divers (already trained and experienced) we take the "well-being" of potential newcomers to our sport WAY too serious. Let me give you a couple of examples......

I agree with you however there is still cause for concern.

In New Zealand we have about 6 divers per year die or go missing while diving. Most of it is down to stupid stuff that they should have been taught, maybe they have and maybe they haven’t.
But 6 divers per year are still far too muny for my liking. I can understand freak accidents but none of these have been such. Just stupid ****.

I have a wee story to tell of one incident down here that happened as a direct result of the “commerce” side of diving. 3 Divers perished in one dive, and 3 others were badly bent and scarred.
Right now I don’t have time to tell the story as my wife is on my back to mow the lawns but I will return and post a link as soon as I can

Ciao

 

[The Chairman]

Right now I don’t have time to tell the story as my wife is on my back to mow the lawns

Tell her it will go a bit better if she climbs off your back and helps to push!

 

[Azza]

Tell her it will go a bit better if she climbs off your back and helps to push!

Yeah that would go down like a Led Zeppelin!!
Now she is on my back for surfing Scubaboard in my "cup of tea break":shakehead

 

[Azza]

One result of aggressive commerce in recreational diving

 

[pgdive]

I apologize if this had already been posted

SSI issues strong statement in response to recent industry programs relating to the Internet and E-Commerce.

Fort Collins, CO - Scuba Schools International (SSI) has announced its position on e-commerce. SSI agrees that the Internet is a great tool, but like any tool, in order to get the desired results it has to be used properly. E-commerce is not the tool to cure a soft industry. Quite the contrary, it has the danger to make things even worse.

Fact 1: The Outdoor Industry Report and the Leisure Trends Report both agree that the majority of consumers "entering the sport" are going to the bricks and mortar for training, equipment and travel.

Fact 2: A "click and mortar" world is highly competitive and expensive to maintain, thereby eroding margins.

Fact 3: To successfully compete, you need to stay true to the basic retail fundamentals ‹ build trust and create loyalty. This type of relationship can only be accomplished through personalized attention.


Fact 4: Attrition is at an all time high. Three top reasons people are dropping out of the sport:

1. Don't feel safe and confident

2. Don't own their own equipment

3. Don't want to dive locally E-commerce will not help to cure any of these problems.


Fact 5: Education is the beginning of every sale in a dive store and the single marketing arm to selling scuba equipment. Dive retailers make their living selling scuba equipment. E-commerce will only lead to more price shopping.


SSI believes that dive retailers are the gateway to our sport and the backbone of the industry. Dive retailers are and remain the industry¹s primary distribution channel.

The SSI Business Model is carefully constructed to create sales, keep divers active and customers loyal to the store.


This philosophy supports everyone. By everyone, SSI includes manufacturers, resorts, publications, and training agencies whose products are being sold to divers. SSI is mindful that we are responsible for helping dive retailers develop long-term, active divers, and we take that responsibility very seriously.

For more details or if you have questions, please contact your local SSI representative or SSI Headquarters.

 

[RiverRat]

SSI issues strong statement in response to recent industry programs relating to the Internet and E-Commerce.

Here's my take:

E-commerce is not the tool to cure a soft industry. Quite the contrary, it has the danger to make things even worse.

I doubt it. I feel it will enhance the industry. It's a screwed up industry to begin with. Lots of backwards thinking shops out there. E-commerce will provide the cutting edge players with many tools for a successfull business.

Fact 1: The Outdoor Industry Report and the Leisure Trends Report both agree that the majority of consumers "entering the sport" are going to the bricks and mortar for training, equipment and travel.

Yes the current model has newbies going into LDS' to get certified. They have to right now. And always will at some point even with E-commerce. I buy equipment both at my local LDS and online. I buy most of my travel online as the local LDS can't even come close to booking me a quality trip like I can book myself.

Fact 2: A "click and mortar" world is highly competitive and expensive to maintain, thereby eroding margins.

There is costs involved for sure. But if you talk to the top shops you'll find that their "internet shop" is probably making more $ and helping to offset losses for their "local shop".

Fact 3: To successfully compete, you need to stay true to the basic retail fundamentals ‹ build trust and create loyalty. This type of relationship can only be accomplished through personalized attention.

BS to that! I am totally loyal to many online retailers, most of them I met right here on SB! And I have also gained mistrust from local retailers and their so called "personalized attention". Blowing smoke up my *** to sell me gear is the kind of "personalized attention" I don't need The shops that provide trust, loyalty and attention, whether on the net or in person, are the shops that will thrive.

Fact 4: Attrition is at an all time high. Three top reasons people are dropping out of the sport:
1. Don't feel safe and confident
2. Don't own their own equipment
3. Don't want to dive locally E-commerce will not help to cure any of these problems.

Yes and no. So what. E-commerse won't fix number 1. Only quality instruction and a desire to learn and practice will. E-commerce won't fix #2 or #3 either. But a local LDS may not fix it as well. But E-commerce MAY HELP an LDS gain tools to communicate better with new divers about gear, safety, local diving etc.
Just like Scubaboard does for me.

Fact 5: Education is the beginning of every sale in a dive store and the single marketing arm to selling scuba equipment. Dive retailers make their living selling scuba equipment. E-commerce will only lead to more price shopping.

Not true in my case. I bought several pieces of gear before I even stepped into an LDS. I bought my Apeks' regs after exhaustive research here on SB. Was it the right thing to do? Maybe not. But I got a killer reg at a killer price BEFORE I even knew what LDS I was going to train with. Then WHILE I WAS TRAINING I bought some gear in the shop. But then LATER IN MY TRAINING I bought more gear "online" (FREDT backplate here on SB) because I was fed a line of **** by my LDS. That led to me buying more gear online and at better prices.

SSI believes that dive retailers are the gateway to our sport and the backbone of the industry.

Very true.

Dive retailers are and remain the industrys primary distribution channel.

Not true anymore. Online retail is taking over.

The SSI Business Model is carefully constructed to create sales, keep divers active and customers loyal to the store.

BS

 

[Patty]

I apologize if this had already been posted

Hi PG - is this an SSI press release? I couldn't find it anywhere.

I was intrigued by this remark:

Fact 4: Attrition is at an all time high. Three top reasons people are dropping out of the sport:

1. Don't feel safe and confident

2. Don't own their own equipment

3. Don't want to dive locally

I wanted to know if they had some study to back this up.

My guess is that e-commerce will appreciably help with #2.

 

[SoCalAJ]

This is going to be interesting to moniter.