Padi Dsat

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I think most of the tech agencies provide ways to avoid deep diving on air these days. With IANTD, you can combine normoxic trimix with the technical diver course. GUE doesn't mess with the deep air thing at all. I'm not sure about TDI. Here comes DSAT with a sparkeling new course with no option for helium prior to doing the course to 165. It looks like flat out insanity to me. I guess some instructors are conducting these courses without hitting the max allowable depths. Since deep diving is the subject, I think that's even more rediculous.

I think allowing the option is one thing but making it a requirement is another. Personally, I wouldn't even bother with an agency that doesn't get it yet.

I'm confused. on the one hand I keep hearing from tech divers "don't regulate me, let me make my own decisions, blah blah blah" then I read crap like this beating up the padi/dsat cert 'cos of the depth. dude, you don't dive that deep in the course and no one makes you dive that deep. if you don't like it don't do it.
 
it is the instructor, period, end of story.

BS. The instructor is key, but the agency DOES matter. In this case, greatly.

I'm floored that DSAT's first tech class is down to 165' on basically air. Yeah, sign me up for that mess. Oh, and the agency dictates that the instructor also has to be on air, less they be able to save you in case anything goes wrong... Whether or not you actually dive that deep, the fact they see nothing wrong with it speaks volumes.

And having two deco bottles to start to me is idiotic. A great killer of tech divers is switching to the wrong bottle (didn't you yourself post here that you did this in your own DSAT class?). I'd much rather get competent and confident with one bottle before adding a second. A mistake could easily prove deadly.
 
Yes...and supposedly, they talk about shooting a lift bag a depth by wrapping your legs around a rock or have your buddy hold you down. I have yet to see this, so it might be an urban scuba legend. (I sure hope it is...because thats just beyond the pale stupid.)

not in the current version. again "it's the instructor not the agency". if the pictures and silly ass video offend your pure black dir soul, then cut 'em out.
 
not in the current version.
So they edited it and changed all their manuals? Good for them, but I still have a copy.

if the pictures and silly ass video offend your pure black dir soul, then cut 'em out.
<snicker>

They don't offend me. They make me LMAO.

Kinda like you.
 
I don't understand what is so bad about going to 50m on air that gets everyone so up in arms. We're not talking 70m here, it's 50m max with the DSAT course on air. No further. From what I read I think TDI teaches to an even greater depth on air, 55m. And there are plenty of places where there are wrecks in the 40-60m range that don't have any access to trimix or helium. Maybe you don't want to make a habit of it, but I don't seem the harm in being trained to got that deep, as long as you understand the implications...

Truk Lagoon is a classic example. It's why I want to get training in deco diving. I just want to see the wrecks. And a fair few lie deep enough that you will enter deco for sure. Can't see what the bashing is about...
 
BS. The instructor is key, but the agency DOES matter. In this case, greatly.

I'm floored that DSAT's first tech class is down to 165' on basically air. Yeah, sign me up for that mess. Oh, and the agency dictates that the instructor also has to be on air, less they be able to save you in case anything goes wrong... Whether or not you actually dive that deep, the fact they see nothing wrong with it speaks volumes.

And having two deco bottles to start to me is idiotic. A great killer of tech divers is switching to the wrong bottle (didn't you yourself post here that you did this in your own DSAT class?). I'd much rather get competent and confident with one bottle before adding a second. A mistake could easily prove deadly.

ok, so you clearly know little about the course.

you start with one bottle not two. I switched because of a mistake on my slate that would not have happened in real life. I was above the mod on both bottles.

it is the SECOND class that increases your depth. the first class you are still limited to recreational depths and no-stop diving. there are no training dives to 165'. most are above 60. my max depth was 110'.
 
I switched because of a mistake on my slate that would not have happened in real life.
It happened in "real life". You were just lucky that it was a training diving and you were above the mod.


it is the SECOND class that increases your depth. the first class you are still limited to recreational depths and no-stop diving. there are no training dives to 165'. most are above 60. my max depth was 110'.

The first one isn't a tech course then, is it. They can call it a tech course. Charge you tech course money...but its not a tech course.
 
Bottom line is:
Find and instructor who is willing and interested in combining TDI classes and avoiding deep air "extended range" stuff. I don't know what mix you'd be on but I know there are good TDI instructors.
NAUI tech at least officially has you on a light trimix to 45m (26/17) and some instructors bend those rules and use a little more. Find one of the instructors using richer helium, they tend to be the better instructors too.
GUE gets you the richest helimum mixes the earliest (21/35 below 100ft)

Skip the hokey DSAT stuff. They have the least instructor quality control IMO and the deep air with 2 deco gas bits are just icing.
 
I'd love to add my two cents, but since I don't post often Ill let you all know I'm a PADI OWSI and TDI Trimix diver. I'm hoping to soon embark on my TDI and PSA instructor certs...

PADI's DSAT course, in my opinion, is sorely lacking and was clearly not designed or written by technical divers, but rather by PADI Lawyers and Educational Consultants. Not something I'd put my life on the line with. The way DSAT is presented by the materials, in a way that dumbs every concept down, avoids giving information that may be hard to grasp or handle, and creating an acronym that must be memorized for every simple procedure is not what technical diving is about. Other agencies (TDI, IANTD, PSA) provide you with a solid foundation in the actual physics, albeit basic. PADI gives us a nice little table, and does not tell us how the values on the table were formed and why the variables were chosen. PADI has us do a NOTOX gas switch, every time. I've NEVER done a NOTOX gas switch. I was taught to positively identify each second stage before I breathed it, much simpler imo. PADI has us STAGE DECO BOTTLES IN OPEN OCEAN ON THE GROUND!!!!!! This simply does not add up for me. I was trained to use the method that works best, has the fewest chances for failure, nd to THINK. PADI tells us how tech divers think, expecting that we will follow. I guess I was "groomed" to think instead of going for a manual to give me a procedure. PADI also has the most confusing omitted deco rules out there. I've never had to rely on Omitted Deco rules, but I know that hopping back to my last stop and adding the required times is much easier than deciding if I need to run plan a, plan 1a, plan 2c, or plan z. I also take a bit of offense when reading the PADI materials, instead of treating us like educated adults, and our instructors like the quality educators they are, they give us shortcuts and don't bother explaining the conceptual ideas behind these. When something does go wrong, having a solid understanding of diving (as opposed to being told what to do) will provide a better bag of tools and resources to meet the challenge.

Now, I am a US citizen, but I don't consider myself American (having only briefly lived in the US for university). It seems that Americans have become very rich and paranoid when it comes to diving. In my parts of the world, the only time a diver would use mix would be a deep penetration. I normally dive 60+ on air, many dive to the 70m+ range on air weekly. The narcosis seems to be half of the draw for some of my fellow divers. I admit, I dive mix when I am interested in seeing a certain landmark on a wreck (a big gun that 12 divers missed for three months, but the first mix diver clearly identified and photoed). I would never ask students to do the same, but knowing a bit about the actions of narcosis and CNS tox (as opposed to threatning language in a manual) make this something I'm willing to do, in a team or solo.

Some may think deep air divers are crazy. The pioneers didn't have mix. The founders of the tech agencies didn't have mix. I use mix as a tool, but I'm not willing to use mix because someone think that moving the "cns limit" back to 1.4 is good for legal reasons (let's be honest). I'd encourage all of you to seek out the information on CNS tox that your agencies don't publish. The time limits for exposures in sport diving up to 1.8, and (for emergencies) the numbers up to 3.0. I'm sure some of you already know that CNS tox only becomes an issue at 1.8, not 1.40000001 and not 1.6.
 
I'm sure some of you already know that CNS tox only becomes an issue at 1.8, not 1.40000001 and not 1.6.

Interesting reply, do you have any sources to back up this claim? I would be interested to know more..
 

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