PADI AOW qualified depth

[toefa]

Firstly, please realize this is a debate, not a personal arguement. Spending 45 minutes of my time (after spending all day diving and teaching...and still not eaten lunch at 8pm) isn't for my benefit. I am trying to help....

I felt this debate got personal, when a) you wrote that my statement made me either a fool, an idiot, a hypocrite or arrogant and b) you assumed how i approach my training. My diving should not have come into the equation.
I merely pointed out that it's a bit backwards to cap my depth at 30 metres, but allow me to skip through the specialty to get to a DM rating enabling me to go to that depth.
There is a flaw in that system. Deep rec diving should either be taught in detail in AOW or the Deep specialty should be mandatory before satisfying the prequisites of obtaining a DM cert.

I don't disagree with the majority of what you have written devon diver. I think you just jumped the gun and assumed a lot about me, just because i questioned the system. If people don't question the system, how can it improve?

 

[DevonDiver]

I felt this debate got personal, when a) you wrote that my statement made me either a fool, an idiot, a hypocrite or arrogant and b) you assumed how i approach my training. My diving should not have come into the equation.

Fair enough. I didn't intend it as personal... just a general assessment of why the failings under-pinning those viewpoints.

If you like, I can edit that post...replacing the word 'You' with the words 'A diver'...

Of course...it would still apply to your earlier statements....

I merely pointed out that it's a bit backwards to cap my depth at 30 metres, but allow me to skip through the specialty to get to a DM rating enabling me to go to that depth.

But....the DM rating doesn't enable you to go to that depth. ...And instructors can't teach to that depth either.... unless they do the course or can prove logged experience...

Likewise... DMs and Instructors cannot do deco diving unless trained for it (and many do... naughty naughty!).

There is a flaw in that system. Deep rec diving should either be taught in detail in AOW or the Deep specialty should be mandatory before satisfying the prequisites of obtaining a DM cert.

As I said, it is a progressive, modular system.

The AOW course is still an entry-level course. (Advanced Open Water) so why should it cover Deep Diving....which is a more advanced skill?

There's no flaw in the system.... it is just that you don't feel that the system should apply to you.... and you don't have the experience to understand the nature and duties of being a professional diver (Divemaster and above).

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Divemaster does not equate to 'Super-Diver'.

I don't disagree with the majority of what you have written devon diver. I think you just jumped the gun and assumed a lot about me, just because i questioned the system. If people don't question the system, how can it improve?

I read your views.... and I recognized them because I deal with diving customers every day/week/month/year.

I think, and forgive me if this sounds patronizing, that an AOW certifiied recreational diver with sub-100 dive experience has no idea about the state of the diving industry or the agency. How can you question the system when you don't understand it? How can you recommend improvements, when you don't even know the subject?

Why not obtain a copy of the PADI Instructor Manual and the Speciality Instructor Manual.... at least have a read through them, before you start assessing the system? At least then, you will understand what is meant to be happening?

 

[tboxcar]

After taking away the 'personal jabs' here and there, I thought this was good debate, as it brought up many good points and some things I did not know. Afterall that is what this board is for to some degree! Happy Diving

 

[BDSC]

After reading through this thread and seeing all the insurance advice that was being given out from folks who probably aren't in the insurance business, I put in a call to my best friend of the past 25 years who owns his own insurance agency. Here is what he told me.

For life insurance: Some policies will say right up front that it will not payout for "high risk" activities, and the policy should define those activities. But if your policy does not include scuba diving as one of the high risk activities, then it would payout to the survivor the premium due no matter if you certification said you were qualified to 30m, 40m, or whatever. Here in the states anyway, they could not refuse to pay because someone went 3, 5, or 50m below what they were "qualified/certified" to do.

Health insurance: Pretty much the same as above. Unless your policy were to state it would not take care of the costs associated with scuba diving, you would be covered. But the amount that would be covered could depend on several factors, however, the depth you dived would not be one of them.

He said you can sorta think of it like car insurance in that if you have an accident going 50 in a 45 zone, they can't deny you coverage because you went 5 mph faster than you were "suppose to".

He did say he has no idea how it works in other countries.

 

[larien]

Thanks for the comments BDSC - I have travel insurance from my bank account and it has a list of "high-risk" activities as you say. Scuba diving is listed, but provided I either dive while qualified and with a qualified buddy or with a qualified dive instructor under instruction, I'm covered to 30m. Obviously, under that insurance, I'd be out of cover if I dived to 31m, but I was interested to find out what the situation would be if I got alternate insurance which potentially covered me to 40m (or deeper).

However... I suspect most dive insurance policies only cover you to your "qualified" depth and I was interested in finding out what the PADI view on that what my "qualified" depth would be (qualified is in quotes, given the strong opinions voiced in this thread as to what that means). Given my qualifications and insurance limitations, I'll stick to 30m for now and look at appropriate teaching for deeper depths later.

Also, slight apology for using metric where most people seem to be using imperial (feet). I was taught with metres and it's what I understand; I keep having to translate 100ft to 30m to keep track of the conversation

 

[BDSC]

Also, slight apology for using metric where most people seem to be using imperial (feet). I was taught with metres and it's what I understand; I keep having to translate 100ft to 30m to keep track of the conversation

You know I remember as a kid being taught in school that is was just a matter of time before the US went to metric like the rest of the world. Well, I'm 51 now and it still hasn't happened. I guess it's hard to teach us old dogs new tricks!

 

[Walter]

Also, slight apology for using metric where most people seem to be using imperial (feet).

Use whichever you like. You ask in metric, I try to remember to reply in metric. Ask in imperial, I'll reply in imperial.

 

[DevonDiver]

This was posted by String on another thread....

EDIT:- Quoting a padi email about a similar but not directly related query:

Originally Posted by PADI
PADI certified divers are always recommended to dive within the limits of their training and experience; however, with two noticeable exceptions, PADI does not set maximum depth limits on its certifications. We provide guidance and recommendations to our students
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As we are a diver training agency, PADI Standards relate to training activities and we do not regulate recreational diving activities of PADI divers – we provide the above recommendations but divers are free individuals and so we have no way to enforce these as absolute limits. The depth limits that you will find in the PADI Instructor Manual (for example 21 metres / 70 feet for a PADI Junior Advanced Open Water Diver student) define the maximum depth that a student can achieve during the training course.
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From PADI’s perspective, dive centres are within their rights to have their own policies on who they will accept and on which dives – the PADI IRRA Standards do not dictate depth restrictions for divers. We understand that you have a business to run and we do not want to restrict you on who you can take on what dives – you are best positioned to make that call on whether someone is allowed on a dive based on their training and experience, as well as your knowledge of the local dive site conditions. Our suggestion is for dive centres to have a policy that takes account of all factors involved (age, training, experience, etc.) and then be very clear to their customers as to why they feel that a certain dive site is inappropriate for them. As already stated, PADI does not set standards for diving outside of PADI programs and courses; nevertheless, dive operators should be mindful of these restrictions
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In the end it is down to your good judgement and that of your staff.

 

[millermil121]

Ive done most of my deep dives up too around 80 feet and my deepest was 100. At 100 feet I saw an excellent wreck but I do in fact have to agree with most post in that the majority of the best sites are in more shallower areas. In lakes I really base my depth max to about 50 feet. Its because they tend to be darker and less inviting then the ocean.

One problem I have encountered with the ocean and depth is that 90 feet almost looks identical to 80 feet so in clear deep water dives constant monitoring of the depth is almost a requirement or you can find yourself a little too deep a little too fast

 

[millermil121]

It's not worth getting into this debate because one side does not appear to be listening.

However, I am interested to learn what gas management protocols the OP learned and practiced for his deep dives.