OW diver below 60 feet?

[Slonda828]

I got my PADI OW certification, and on my first dive after the course, the DM said we'd go down to 80 feet. I said that I only had OW, which he knew because this was the same place I'd just taken my OW course, and he said that's all right, no problem. I thought, maybe it's because a DM can take a diver deeper than that diver is allowed to go when just diving with another OW diver as a buddy.

On my next (and only other) dive trip, the dive shop owner said we'd be diving to 80 feet, and I again expressed my concern, as above, and he said, don't worry, no problem. We were always diving with a DM (maximum 6 divers per DM).

My question: was it really stupid of me to dive to 80 feet? Does the presence of a DM make the difference? FWIW, both times were in the Caribbean, warm water, excellent visibility, daytime dives.

Dude, ask yourself this question: "Do I feel like I am being safe and in line with my experience level?" If the answer to that is yes, then who gives a flying rat's butt what the piece of recreational SCUBA diving plastic in your wallet says. This type of paranoia about the SCUBA police showing up at your boat when you dive over 60 feet with an open water card is engineered by a lot of people to keep you paying for more cards, classes, and to scare you. If you feel like you are ready, and you're being real and honest with yourself, then you are. If you need advice from experienced people on what skills constitute "ready", ask someone super experienced like Walter, Ana, Thalassamania, or others.

FWIW , YMMV, etc, etc. I'm sure a bunch of SCUBA police will show up to flame me for this.

 

[Slonda828]

It would be safer if they dived in the conditions they were trained in, and at similar depths.

Terry

So by this logic you are saying that you can't dive in an area you aren't trained in without being "less safe"? I beg to differ. I learned several "specialties" without any formal training. I bet you have too. They would also be safer in a pool than in the ocean, but what's the fun in that? You do what we all do, you link up with a smart person for a dive buddy and pick their brain. I learned more about diving deep by diving deep than I did from the VHS video they handed me at the dive shop full of people in 80's gear.

 

[orange_diver]

Dude, ask yourself this question: "Do I feel like I am being safe and in line with my experience level?" If the answer to that is yes, then who gives a flying rat's butt what the piece of recreational SCUBA diving plastic in your wallet says. This type of paranoia about the SCUBA police showing up at your boat when you dive over 60 feet with an open water card is engineered by a lot of people to keep you paying for more cards, classes, and to scare you. If you feel like you are ready, and you're being real and honest with yourself, then you are. If you need advice from experienced people on what skills constitute "ready", ask someone super experienced like Walter, Ana, Thalassamania, or others.

FWIW , YMMV, etc, etc. I'm sure a bunch of SCUBA police will show up to flame me for this.

not gonna flame you at all. but i would like to point out that scuba diving is one of those "you don't know what you don't know" activities and most (not all) freshly minted OW divers simply don't know how the physics of decompression and nitrogen narcosis works as well as proper gas management. i know i sure didn't until i pursued much more advanced (i.e. tech) training.

so going by how they "feel" is potentially dangerous because they don't know enough when to feel unsafe. therefore the 60' rule.

as for finding an experienced mentor such as you mentioned to qualify them as "ready", yes that is an excellent way to go.

 

[Dtaine]

My discomfort arose from my feeling that I could not self-rescue myself from that depth. My comfort came from feeling that I understood (and had practiced during OW training) how to share air with my buddy if either one of us ran out, and from knowing that my buddy on that dive was very experienced, and my general impression of her as an intelligent, careful diver.

If this is the case then I would say the dive was ill-advised. A dive should be made within the comfort of the least-experienced team member. If you can't rescue yourself than you certainly won't be able to help your teammates if they get in trouble.

Being deeper (even 60 fsw) makes everything worse. Everything bad in diving happens on the trip up. If you are going to be popping up to the surface because of something you or your buddy did it's much better to be at 30 fsw for the first few dives then 60 fsw or 80 fsw or whatever.

An uncontrolled ascent from 30 fsw can cause a lot of damage. Depth doesn't change the need to be able to manage a safe and controlled ascent.

The concept of an OW diver being competent to 60 ft and an AOW diver being competent to 100 ft is a dangerous one. Many OW divers do not have the experience to dive to 60 ft while others do have the experience to safely dive to 100+ ft. OTOH, an AOW certification does not qualify one to make a dive to 100 ft.

I completely agree.

not gonna flame you at all. but i would like to point out that scuba diving is one of those "you don't know what you don't know" activities and most (not all) freshly minted OW divers simply don't know how the physics of decompression and nitrogen narcosis works as well as proper gas management. i know i sure didn't until i pursued much more advanced (i.e. tech) training.

so going by how they "feel" is potentially dangerous because they don't know enough when to feel unsafe. therefore the 60' rule.

as for finding an experienced mentor such as you mentioned to qualify them as "ready", yes that is an excellent way to go.

While I don't think the difference between 60 and 80 feet is all that great in terms of dive planning, skill required, etc, I do agree that it is a "rule" for a logical reason. I certainly didn't have the knowledge of decompression, narcosis, etc, right out of OW training to pursue deeper dives, and most of the OW divers I know who are recently certified don't have a clue about it whatsoever.

At the same time, skill, comfort, and a general understanding of the affects of narcosis and other issues, could make an OW certified diver qualified to do a dive beyond the 60' "rule". Each diver has to be aware of their own limits, and be comfortable with their skills and knowledge before seeking to attempt dives to 80, 100, or deeper recreational depths.

I think some OW certified divers would be fine at 80 or 100 feet, but if the OP is being honest about not being able to perform a self-rescue at those depths then I don't believe the dives were a good idea.

 

[Web Monkey]

Dude, ask yourself this question: "Do I feel like I am being safe and in line with my experience level?" If the answer to that is yes, then who gives a flying rat's butt what the piece of recreational SCUBA diving plastic in your wallet says.

With a good regulator and nice warm clear water you can feel safe at depths far below where you actually are safe.

OOA at 30'? No big deal. OOA at 130' or inside a swim-through? Yes that could easily be a big deal.

As you go deeper, the safety procedures you learned in OW class become insufficient, which is one reason for the suggested depth limit.

Terry

 

[Zieg]

With a good regulator and nice warm clear water you can feel safe at depths far below where you actually are safe.

OOA at 30'? No big deal. OOA at 130' or inside a swim-through? Yes that could easily be a big deal.

As you go deeper, the safety procedures you learned in OW class become insufficient, which is one reason for the suggested depth limit.

Terry

Web, what are the additional safety procedures not taught in OW that you would need for 130'? Wait, let rephrase that question. What additional safety procedures are taught in AOW that are not taught in OW. Or perhaps you can elaborate at what depths (up to 130' so we don't get too carried away) do the safety procedures taught in OW become insufficient.

Maybe these questions, What safety procedures work at 60' but are insufficient at 80'. Go ahead, CESA, I know. But if you can do a CESA at 60' you can do one at 80', wheather you realize it or not.

Oh yes, please, remember this discussion started about 60' vs 80'.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I just want to get clarification one thing from some of the posters here (and you know who you are).

You believe that as soon as a diver is done with their initial certification, it is time to start ignoring the guidelines put in places by the Agencies and other divers to keep those very people reasonably safe. Am I interpereting your posts correctly? If you answer NO, understand that you have done a terrible job in conveying your point because that is exactly what is coming accross.

And please remember, there is a significant difference between Responsible advice in a Beginner's Forum and Irresponsible advice in a Beginner's Forum.

 

[daniel1948]

Perhaps we can ease your mind a little. If you are watching your SPG, you should never have to make an ascent, from any depth, without air. I could be wrong, but I am not aware of any regulator that froze shut, they all fail open, resulting in a freeflow.
At 1000 PSI, even from 80 feet, you would have enough time to calmly swim at least most of the way to the surface. Perhaps the last 20 feet or so you would be exhaling the last breath you could take, but since you are diving within NDL limits, you are safe to make a direct ascent. 1000 PSI at 80 feet? You should probably be on your way up before you get that low. This is close to worst case on a normal dive.

I always watch my computer, which tells me air pressure, depth, NDL time, and an estimate of my remaining air time. On the first trip, the DMs told us to ascend when we had 750 psi, but because of the dive profile, we were well above 80 feet long before that. On the second trip, the DMs had us ascent with 500 psi, but the profiles there had us shallower yet before then.

... unless someone is making special plans, every first dive of a two tank dive in Cozumel exceeds 60 feet, so you can be sure that just about everyone who gets certified there goes below 60 feet on their next dives. [...snip...] With such an excellent track record of safety, it makes sense for you to go on a dive like that.

Cozumel is indeed the location of that second trip of mine. Knowing they would be taking us to 80 feet, and feeling uncomfortable about that, I paid for a private DM for the first two days. After that I was feeling comfortable.

Keep all the drama, 20' coming up underwater is nothing.

I disagree. It's half a minute of holding your breath.

It would be even safer if all the new divers stay within 40'. It is 20' feet less than 60 so it is double-safe. No wait, keep them at 20' that is double-double-safe.

This is called reductio ad absurdum and it is not a legitimate argument.

Dude, ask yourself this question: "Do I feel like I am being safe and in line with my experience level?" If the answer to that is yes, then who gives a flying rat's butt what the piece of recreational SCUBA diving plastic in your wallet says. This type of paranoia about the SCUBA police showing up at your boat when you dive over 60 feet with an open water card is engineered by a lot of people to keep you paying for more cards, classes, and to scare you. If you feel like you are ready, and you're being real and honest with yourself, then you are. If you need advice from experienced people on what skills constitute "ready", ask someone super experienced like Walter, Ana, Thalassamania, or others.

Speaking for myself, I was not worried about any scuba police. I was looking for advice regarding smart diving habits. And for the greater part of this thread, I was getting just that. Some differences of opinion, but all thoughtful. It seems to have deteriorated a bit.

I do think, however, that ability to self-rescue is not a suitable standard to judge by. Diving is a sport that has some risks, and the deeper you go the greater they are. At the same time, the less experience you have, the greater is your risk at any given depth. Each of us decides what risks we are willing to take. I reduce my risks by using a good regulator, by not diving alone, by diving with reputable operators, and by limiting my depth.

Thanks to everyone who has participated in this thread, I feel I should not have taken those first dives to 80 feet. I should have paid for a private DM and stayed shallower. I now feel comfortable at 80 feet, but will go no deeper until I feel prepared for it. Deep diving does not interest me. I just want to go where the pretty fishes and corals are. I do feel that with proper planning, training, and conservative habits, the most dangerous part of my dive trip will be driving to the airport. But I still plan on studying and learning as much as I can, to keep the risks as low as I can reasonably keep them, without giving up the fun of diving.

 

[Web Monkey]

Web, what are the additional safety procedures not taught in OW that you would need for 130'? Wait, let rephrase that question. What additional safety procedures are taught in AOW that are not taught in OW. Or perhaps you can elaborate at what depths (up to 130' so we don't get too carried away) do the safety procedures taught in OW become insufficient.

The following items are not taught in OW and are necessary to dive safely below where "blow and go" is a good option. The actual depth depends on personal physiology:

• Gas planning that takes into account what it takes to get you and your freaked out hoovering buddy safely to the surface from any point in the dive. This is not "be back on the boat with 500PSI."
• Knowing that your 80 cu ft tank isn't really enough to do the deep swim-through the DM is about to take you on and that you're not equipped or trained to share air single-file. (yes I know OW divers aren't "supposed" to be in overhead environments, but the reality is they're taken there every day)
• Buddy skills - actual buddy awareness during the dive including keeping an eye on his tank pressure, stress level and behavior.
• Good buoyancy control, both alone and during air-sharing ascents

There's more, but this comes to mind for starters.

Terry

 

[offthewall1]

Why not just make all open water training to 33 ft... or one atmosphere... which is basically a long safety stop. In addition, most people could easily make it to the surface on a single breath of air from 33 ft... or at least get close enough before gulping water that they wouldn't completely drown themselves.

This would be brilliant for agencies (suggested sarcasm here) as they could now add intermediate diver levels and charge even more money for the training. It would absolve Instructors, shops and agencies from even more liability as anyone OWD who went deeper than 33ft could not win a suit... they violated their training.

The reality is that diving is dangerous - no matter how we all like to twist it and say it isn't. The good part is that the danger rarely comes to fruition. When it does, it is usually no ones fault but our own... which leads us all back to diving within your own comfort limit. Not the comfort limit of a DM or your buddy.

I suggest to all of my students... yes, you're certified to 60ft... but take it easy when you're just starting out. Do a few dives to 30ft to get comfortable... then move to 60ft when you feel ready. Then consider 90ft-100ft.. and on to the 130 limit. I suggest how a deep course will help them... and I tell them that it is a prudent thing to do - to have an Instructor with significant deep experience with them when they do it. Not a DM and not just any Instructor... but an Instructor who's been there done that... and would actually be able to handle any situation that may arise at that depth without freaking out.

The problem is that I know Instructors who teach deep... that have never been deep... except in the local quarry... and even then... they call anything over 60ft deep... and rarely take a student beyond 90ft for deep training. While this meets minimum standards... to me it means the Instructor is not the one I want.

In the end... yes, 60 feet is double 30 and 80feet is 20X4... and it's nice to know that most of us on the board have mad math skills.... but as I teach my students... the math isn't so important as knowing what the heck you're doing. Go dive... have fun, be safe, buy a computer, and leave the math at home - trust me - it's more fun that way... and that's what this is all about.