OW diver below 60 feet?

[Zieg]

Daniel, Perhaps I should have addressed your original post first. In an answer to your question, No, I do not believe that your dives to 80' were stupid. In fact, I'm am proud of you for making those dives. You were in Cozumel, some of the most relaxing diving around, with a DM, someone to basicaly hold your hand. You should have relaxed and enjoyed the experience and realized that you are perfectly capable of diving the extra 20' without any major concern in those conditions. For those of you out there gasping right now, we are not talking 150' tp 170' or 200' to 225'.

My objection, in this thread, is all the nay-sayers; and you out there know who you are; who spout you have to strickly stick to some "rule" that they seem to believe is etched in stone. That you can't dive below a certain line in the water until you have completed some sort of 'ritual', yeah, I know, that statement will surly pive some of you off. But you will not die is you go beyond that line. In fact Daniel, you gained a nice bit of experience on those dives and you should now have more confidence in your own abilities and to be more comfortable in the water.

I do believe in the principle of not exceeding your comfort zone. I don't believe in telling you what your comfort zone is, and I don't want to scare you into thinking that your comfort zone ends at a certain depth.

Perhaps it is because I am old school. I started diving by reading a book, a manual, grabbed some gear and went diving. I was extremely comfortable in the water. When I had a chance I took a dive class. Yes, I learned a few more things, mainly about how to calculate the physics involved and how to use a table to calculate deco stops. (already knew the no deco limits and why, remember I can read) No one came to me and told me I couldn't dive to any depth I desired. They did tell me that the recommended max depth for sport diving was 130'.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Old school?????? Let me be the first to welcome to Today! What you were taught is absolutely irrelevant. The point is what is being passed for education today....not 30 years ago. You are passing advise in a New Divers forum....not a "Been diving since the 60's" forum. If the courses taught today are sufficient enough for experienced divers to confidently advise new divers to selectively ignore what they were "taught", then the agencies are doing a much better job then I thought. If they are not, then we should adjust our advise accordingly or stop giving it.

 

[Ana]

The OP's post is in the proper forum. ANA's post is not. My opinion, of course.

If you read a post that is either out of place, or for any reason doesn't follow the TOS go ahead and report it.

Keep all the drama, 20' coming up underwater is nothing.

I disagree. It's half a minute of holding your breath.

If there is a need to go to the surface because you are out of air I would recommend non-stop humming as you move up and do not take half a minute to gain 20 feet, specially on the beginning of your ascent.

It would be even safer if all the new divers stay within 40'. It is 20' feet less than 60 so it is double-safe. No wait, keep them at 20' that is double-double-safe.

This is called reductio ad absurdum and it is not a legitimate argument.

That is exactly what I thought. 20' under the conditions described were not a legitimate argument to jeopardize safety.

 

[Web Monkey]

Daniel, Perhaps I should have addressed your original post first. In an answer to your question, No, I do not believe that your dives to 80' were stupid. In fact, I'm am proud of you for making those dives. You were in Cozumel, some of the most relaxing diving around, with a DM, someone to basicaly hold your hand.

60' isn't magic, it's just a nice depth where bad things don't happen too quickly and the surface isn't generally too far away. Will 61' kill you if you have a problem? Probably not. 70'? 80'? 90'? 100'? deeper? Who knows?

However "Being with a DM" can be very helpful or completely meaningless and a false sense of security depending on the DM and what his actual job is. A DM leading 6 divers spread out over several hundred feet is in no position to help (or even identify) a diver having problems. A DM you hire as your buddy should be much more help, although this isn't always the case either.

Terry

 

[lowviz]

If you read a post that is either out of place, or for any reason doesn't follow the TOS go ahead and report it.

If there is a need to go to the surface because you are out of air I would recommend non-stop humming as you move up and do not take half a minute to gain 20 feet, specially on the beginning of your ascent.

Too much like being a crybaby, rather bump shoulders a bit.

Very good advice.

 

[Zieg]

The following items are not taught in OW and are necessary to dive safely below where "blow and go" is a good option. The actual depth depends on personal physiology:

• Gas planning that takes into account what it takes to get you and your freaked out hoovering buddy safely to the surface from any point in the dive. This is not "be back on the boat with 500PSI."
• Knowing that your 80 cu ft tank isn't really enough to do the deep swim-through the DM is about to take you on and that you're not equipped or trained to share air single-file. (yes I know OW divers aren't "supposed" to be in overhead environments, but the reality is they're taken there every day)
• Buddy skills - actual buddy awareness during the dive including keeping an eye on his tank pressure, stress level and behavior.
• Good buoyancy control, both alone and during air-sharing ascents

There's more, but this comes to mind for starters.

Terry

OK Web, To let you know exactly where I stand, I have not checked to see exactly what is the different agencies add to their AOW classes to make them special.

But my question was about what safety procedures are taught not what can be thought up for argument purposes.

But to answer some of your points. I have seen countless AOW divers who do not know any additional gas planning. All they do know is be back on the boat with 500psi, to the point where they will just about kill themselves because they believe in the magic "500psi" rule where they will die if they exceed that 'line' that's been drilled into their skulls. That is another topic altogether, argued to death. So I don't buy that they are taught extra bit of training. If they are, GREAT, I love it. As for a 'freaked out hoovering buddy', if they get taught how to adequately handle that, then that was a great instructor probably teaching beyond the requirements. and I would recommend him to others.

"Knowing that your 80 cu ft tank isn't really enough to do the deep swim-through the DM is about to take you on and that you're not equipped or trained to share air single-file." Do they really theach this about DM's in AOW? Or are they taught that a DM is 'goood', trust your DM, take more classes so you too can be a DM? So I guess that the problem in this senerio isthey are taught not to trust DM's. Looks to me like you're reaching on this one.

Your last two points, buddy awareness and good bouyancy control. Yes, these I like, I do believe they are taught more buddy awareness and control and AOW is a great place for this type of experience. But so is basic, and OW. These skills should be taught and emphasized from the very beginning not just waiting til AOW. But I believe that if a diver can handle buddy and buoyancy control at 60', he should be able to handle it at 80'. If he can't handle it at 60' then there is the problem.

Web, we can spend an eternity coming up with these senerios and discuss them to death and turn this into "who can get the last work in" type of thread where neither one gives an inch. I don't want to. It gets boring. If my earlier thread came off as a flame, and I am sure that it did, well, I don't mean it to at this time. I'm sure that if we were all face to face and could see each others face, we would smile, and this would be a fun, interesting, and educational discussion. I do hope I made my stance on the 60' vs 80' line a bit clearer earlier in my response to Daniel.

 

[Slonda828]

With a good regulator and nice warm clear water you can feel safe at depths far below where you actually are safe.

OOA at 30'? No big deal. OOA at 130' or inside a swim-through? Yes that could easily be a big deal.

As you go deeper, the safety procedures you learned in OW class become insufficient, which is one reason for the suggested depth limit.

Terry

Terry,

You're a smart guy, and I respect your opinion. But how do you tell if you "feel safer than you actually are." How do you codify that? My point is this, maybe people should be allowed to be grown ups. If you dive past your abilities, then you pay for the errors. Nobody checks on everyone who drives once they get their license. If you make a mistake, you pay for it. JMO

 

[Web Monkey]

OK Web, To let you know exactly where I stand, I have not checked to see exactly what is the different agencies add to their AOW classes to make them special.

Actually, you brought up AOW, which has nothing to do with the OPs question.

The question was from a brand-new OW diver who did an 80' dive as his first dive after certification and wanted to know if it was a risky thing to do, even though the DM and shop owner said it was OK.

I thought it was an unnecessary risk, especially for a new diver.

While it might be fun to play "where is this topic covered?", it's completely irrelevant, since the OP has had no additional training and in fact had had no additional dives.

Terry

 

[Web Monkey]

But how do you tell if you "feel safer than you actually are."

You "feel safer than you actually are" when you feel safe but don't have actual concrete procedures for reducing risks and handling failures.

"I'm safe because"

• There's a DM with our group
• The boat driver said it was OK
• My buddy said it was OK
• The water is really clear and bright

are all instances of the above.

"I'm safe because"

• I know the dive plan and I've calculated that I have enough air for me and my buddy in an emergency and I've been in similar conditions before
• I have the skills and confidence to safely ascend with or without my buddy at any point
• I understand when someone is telling me to do something I'm not comfortable with and have the self-confidence to refuse to participate

are reasons to legitimately feel safe.

Terry

 

[Slonda828]

With a good regulator and nice warm clear water you can feel safe at depths far below where you actually are safe.

OOA at 30'? No big deal. OOA at 130' or inside a swim-through? Yes that could easily be a big deal.

As you go deeper, the safety procedures you learned in OW class become insufficient, which is one reason for the suggested depth limit.

Terry

I have two points on this Terry. First, how do you quantify that someone feels safer than they are? Is that your judgment or theirs? Who sets those standards. Secondly, I have a bunch of plastic in my dive log. None of that training that got me that plastic taught me gas planning in terms of rock bottom or turn pressures or anything other than "come back with 500 PSI." I agree, as you go deeper the safety procedures you learn in OW become insufficient. However, by diving deeper and learning gas planning with someone experienced (which I mentioned in my above thread), you get those skills. You certainly don't get them in any non-GUE class I've ever seen (No I am not a GUE guy) short of a tech class.

To the OP, you already sounded like you had your mind made up that you felt what you did was unsafe. Why come on here and ask about it if you had already reached a conclusion? SB is like talking religion or politics, you can find people who are willing to support or oppose you on any subject you choose here. If you wanted affirmation, then maybe you already had your mind made up.

Anyway, it is beneath me to get into an argument on the internet, and I'm out.