OW diver below 60 feet?

[offthewall1]

Another 2 cents...

DM's are not all created equal... there are competent DM's and there are DM's I wouldn't depend on in a swimming pool.

Here is something I once saw happen underwater...

I was diving in a group at an un-named resort at an un-named destination when the boat dropped our group of 10 divers and 2 DM's into the water. One DM was to lead and the other follow the group. We were suppose to be on a wall dive.

During descent into the clear blue water - no wall in sight... the lead DM was descending - taking our group deeper and deeper with no apparent idea where she was going... blue water everywhere... and no wall in sight. I finally took a moment to check my guage and low and behold our entire group was drifting in the abyss at 135 ft... and not a wall in sight. I saw the lead DM signal to the trail DM (asking which direction they needed to go.) After a couple of shoulder shrugs back and forth... they signaled for ascent. Apparently neither one had taken a compass heading over to the wall before jumping off the boat.

Luckily, I had taken a compass heading... as had another experienced diver in the group. I concurred with the other diver and we agreed which direction the wall was in - so we signaled the DM's to follow us... after what seemed like an eternity... we reached the wall... and during our swim to it... we gradually ascended the group to 60ft. By the time we got there, some people in the group were down to 1000psi. Apparently they were anxiety filled having never had to swim in open blue water away from a wall where it was 700 feet to the bottom. With no visual references they were near panic mode... but luckily managed to keep themselves together until we could get them to the wall.

They did controlled ascents up the wall and made it out alive... no thanks to not one - but two DM's who had no clue what they were doing. They took us into deep blue water having no idea where they were.

I tell this tale for one simple reason - do not under any circumstance trust that a DM is there to save you... because some of them can't even save themselves

Be Safe - Be self-sufficient...Happy Diving!

 

[gcbryan]

I'm always surprised when newer divers can ask a question such was "was what I did dangerous" (no offense to the OP at all by the way).

It's not about 60 fsw vs 80 fsw. As other's have said it's about how comfortable you are (and this assumes one isn't an idiot as I'm sure an idiot is always comfortable).

Almost all new divers have much to learn regarding buoyancy control and avoiding panic when something unexpected happens. Being deeper (even 60 fsw) makes everything worse. Everything bad in diving happens on the trip up. If you are going to be popping up to the surface because of something you or your buddy did it's much better to be at 30 fsw for the first few dives then 60 fsw or 80 fsw or whatever.

Once you have had a few dives and know that you won't be having those problems then it probably doesn't make any difference if you are at 60 fsw or 80 fsw. But if you have enough experience for it not to be a problem you probably won't feel the need to ask that kind of question either.

To the OP, it was a good question of course, but if you have to ask a question like that it sort of suggests it's own answer and I certainly wouldn't base a decision on whether or not there was a DM along on the dive.

 

[lmorin]

....
Food for thoughts: In a burning house, would you rather be 10 feet any from the nearest door of 100 feet !!!

Dive safe !

Rather depends on where the fire is, doesn't it?

 

[Diver0001]

Thanks for all the comments. While I agree that diving beyond one's comfort zone is a very bad idea, comfort is not necessarily an indication of safety. People can feel safe doing things they are not competent to do.

That's a very astute comment. You can see exactly what Daniel is talking about every time you drive your car on the freeway...

But getting to the point, this is why I mentioned in my first message that you need to consider your comfort *and* your skill levels.

I believe it's hard for new divers to judge their real skill levels some times, especially if their instructors were the types who believe that giving nothing but positive feedback is somehow helping the student develop. It really is best that student are given an honest appraisal of their skill so they are aware of both their strengths and their weaknesses. If their instructors avoided giving direct feedback then some students may in fact be unaware of their weaknessess and end up, as Daniel says, feeling comfortable when they shouldn't be. we call these people "overconfident". Some, in fact, may feel perfectly at ease making fairly significant blunders.... We tend to call these people "idiots" when in fact, most often they are, for one reason or another, simply unaware of what they're doing wrong.

On the other hand, while the ability to avoid problems at depth is best, the ability to keep a clear head and handle problems at depth is important too. And that's the comfort zone issue. If you're feeling stressed then you won't be able to think straight when you have to. So yeah, while feeling comfortable doesn't automatically put you at lower risk, feeling uncomfortable *does* automatically puts you at higher risk.

Ultimately it's the diver him/herself who needs to judge if they're ready to push a little on the boundaries. We can hope that the people we would call "overconfident" or "idiots" won't push their boundaries but let's be honest. These aren't the ones who start a thread on scubaboard asking people for feedback on these things .....

To you, Daniel, I would suggest that yuo're on track with the way you look at this. I don't know if you would have done it again after reading this thread but that's up to you to decide.... I would caution you though that while the step from 60-80 feet isn't that big the step from 60-100 (or 130) feet is and you should really take the adanced course and get some deep experience under direct supervision before you do that. There are things that get special attention in the deep courses that need a little more attention than they got in the Open Water course. This is logical because while the open water course may have given you a broad understanding, some of the information proably wasn't deeped out enough because your instructor will have assumed that you would take the advanced course before you started diving deep. So before you go deeper again, consider that. You may be unware of some things that you should know.

R..

 

[Walter]

I got my PADI OW certification, and on my first dive after the course, the DM said we'd go down to 80 feet. .....

My question: was it really stupid of me to dive to 80 feet? .

That depends. What was your previous experience? You may have a total of 4 dives to 20 feet. In that case, it really is stupid to go to 80 feet or even 50 feet for that matter. OTOH, if you had 4 or more dives with two or more to 60 feet, it's not that big a jump, although a more gradual progression is better.

The concept of an OW diver being competent to 60 ft and an AOW diver being competent to 100 ft is a dangerous one. Many OW divers do not have the experience to dive to 60 ft while others do have the experience to safely dive to 100+ ft. OTOH, an AOW certification does not qualify one to make a dive to 100 ft.

 

[daniel1948]

I am finding this discussion very educational. Thanks to everyone who is participating!

Ask yourself this question ... if your dive buddy came up to you at 80 feet and gave you an out-of-air signal, do you feel competent in your ability to get both of you to the surface safely while sharing air from your tank?

Yes, I do. And on that first dive, though I do not know the certification level of my buddy, I do know that she had many years diving experience, as co-owner of the resort. Incidentally, she complimented me after the dive, for being relaxed and for always looking around and knowing where she was.

....remember you are only as safe as you can self rescue yourself....dive as if you are on your own even in the presence of a group or buddy.

My discomfort arose from my feeling that I could not self-rescue myself from that depth. My comfort came from feeling that I understood (and had practiced during OW training) how to share air with my buddy if either one of us ran out, and from knowing that my buddy on that dive was very experienced, and my general impression of her as an intelligent, careful diver.

If I really felt that I should never dive where I could not self-rescue, then I would probably not scuba dive at all. There are always risks, even crossing the street. Diving is a buddy sport, and with a good buddy, I now feel (with my 24 dives) that the risks of diving to 80 feet in warm clear water with a reputable diver operator, are acceptable.

Nobody ever knows how they would respond in an emergency, but I have been in some situations that frightened me (not diving), and so far I have not panicked. I do have my comfort limits, and I have turned around when I felt a situation is actually dangerous (e.g. hiking in the mountains, and the trail began to seem technical).

I have confidence in my ability to remain calm when frightened, and I am not a risk-taker. I am not an athlete, but I exercise 5 days a week and both my doctor and my cardiologist say I am in excellent health and am fit for whatever activities I want to do, including diving.

But I do not feel that I could make it to the surface from 80 feet without air.

The bigger question is are you personally ready for that challenge? Are you prepared mentally? Do you have the proper equipment for deeper diving? Are you self dependent or are you placing your life in someone elses hands - such as the DM?

On that day, I did not feel personally ready for 80 feet. I did have the proper equipment and a buddy I trusted. I felt capable of doing everything I had learned, but I had not learned to self-rescue from that depth. Now, with 20 more dives behind me, I do feel comfortable at 80 feet (warm, clear water). I would not dive that deep today in cold or murky water. And I will not go deeper than that for the time being, except with an instructor when it comes time (hopefully on my next dive trip) to take my Advanced class, where a deeper dive is mandatory.

Again, I am finding this thread very educational, as well as the thread about free diving and scuba.

 

[seaducer]

The most commonly listed "#1 Rule" in scuba is of course, never hold your breath. I would argue though, that the most useful rule, the one that should be #1, is know your limits, and stay within them. You seem to understand where your limits are, and that is a good thing.

But I do not feel that I could make it to the surface from 80 feet without air.

Perhaps we can ease your mind a little. If you are watching your SPG, you should never have to make an ascent, from any depth, without air. I could be wrong, but I am not aware of any regulator that froze shut, they all fail open, resulting in a freeflow.
At 1000 PSI, even from 80 feet, you would have enough time to calmly swim at least most of the way to the surface. Perhaps the last 20 feet or so you would be exhaling the last breath you could take, but since you are diving within NDL limits, you are safe to make a direct ascent. 1000 PSI at 80 feet? You should probably be on your way up before you get that low. This is close to worst case on a normal dive.
Of course, since you are buddy diving, the above assumes you received no help from anyone else, in reality your buddy should be there with you, with an octo if you need it. You are wise not to count on it, but it should be there. Probably can still do your safety stop anyway

That doesn't mean you should dive right back down to 80 feet. Your depth limit is the limits of your gear, training, and comfort levels, which ever is shallowest. Your training is in reality for no decompression depths. There are no laws that keep you at 60 or less, no DM will keep you from deeper dives on vacation.

 

[boulderjohn]

If I recall correctly, the late Kurt Vonnegut once described something he called the chronosynclastic infundibulum, a warp in space in which everyone's opinion, no matter how contradictory, is correct. I think we may have one here.

Because of the effects of Boyle's Law, it is actually easier to dive at 80 or 100 feet than it is at 30-60 feet. If you were to dive at those greater depths, even solo, the odds very much favor you being just fine.

That does not make it a good idea.

The main problem, as others have said, is that if something does indeed go wrong, you may not have the skills, equipment, or the presence of mind to do what you need to do to solve the problem. If you have developed the proper habit of checking your gauges regularly, you will notice that you are going through your air more quickly and will be prepared to ascend at the proper time...if you have developed that habit. If you and your buddy maintain proper spacing and communication, you will remind each other to check your gauges, and one will be close enough to help the other in an emergency...if you have those habits as well. If you remain calm and collected, a CESA from 80 feet is not that difficult...if you remain calm and collected.

Thus, the danger that you will not be able to solve problems at depth leads to the conclusion that you should stay away from deeper dives until you have had further training.

On the other hand, as the DM's told you, new divers really do go with DM's below 60 feet all the time. For example, unless someone is making special plans, every first dive of a two tank dive in Cozumel exceeds 60 feet, so you can be sure that just about everyone who gets certified there goes below 60 feet on their next dives. The presence of a good DM will mitigate those risks, and obviously the vast majority--maybe nearly 100%--of those divers will be just fine.

With such an excellent track record of safety, it makes sense for you to go on a dive like that.

I think the prudent thing to do is to find a middle ground. Until you develop the skills and reflexes to deal issues that may arise at depth, either by further training (recommended) or lots of experience, make sure you have a DM you can really trust if you are going deeper than 60 feet.

And the earlier reference to incompetent DM's duly noted. I have seen similar things myself.

 

[Web Monkey]

Please people, get over this 60' vs 80' crap. The only real difference between 60 and 80 ft is between your ears. It you can handle running out of air at 60ft then you can handle it at 80'. If you can't handle it at 80 then you sure can't handle it at 60' and should stay out of the water.

80' is 20' deeper than 60'.

SAC rates go up, it takes more time and more air to get to the surface, and if the divers haven't learned how to do any gas planning more significant than "Be back with 500 PSI", an air-sharing ascent from 80' has a better chance of ending with two divers OOA instead of one.

Terry

 

[Zieg]

80' is 20' deeper than 60'.

SAC rates go up, it takes more time and more air to get to the surface, and if the divers haven't learned how to do any gas planning more significant than "Be back with 500 PSI", an air-sharing ascent from 80' has a better chance of ending with two divers OOA instead of one.

Terry

Keep all the drama, 20' coming up underwater is nothing.