Opinions on DSAT TecRec courses

[DCBC]

No matter how accosted you are to coping with narcosis, it is diminishing your mental quantity, and you will break sooner than were you not intoxicated. Most of the time, that's not a problem.

I agree. What I'm saying is that the diver who hasn't the experience with dealing with a heavy dose of narcosis, likely will become fish food when it happens. If they had a longer learning curve before rushing into mixed-gas, this wouldn't necessarily be the case. As I mentioned,short training programs don't prepare a diver adequately for deep water.

I saw a plaque at the Top Gun School at Miramar in 1976 that said "Training and experience wins battles, not technology." The point is that technology is great, but if you aren't fully trained and have the experience to back-it-up, your gonna get your ass roasted.

Putting an inexperienced diver into deepwater regardless of the mixture, is an accident waiting to happen. I don't know the standards of all the technical agencies, but in all likelihood, they're not that high. I'm not saying that there aren't competent recreational technical divers, but the ones that are won't we unsafe diving air at 150'.

 

[Blackwood]

I saw a plaque at the Top Gun School at Miramar in 1976 that said "Training and experience wins battles, not technology." The point is that technology is great, but if you aren't fully trained and have the experience to back-it-up, your gonna get your ass roasted.

I mostly agree with that plaque (as an aerospace engineer, I have some insight into related technology which belies the statement).

However, I'm not sure it is analogous to this case. More analogous would be sending fighter pilot students up without their facemasks.

 

[DCBC]

More analogous would be sending fighter pilot students up without their facemasks.

All students are exposed to Hypoxia before they're allowed to sit in an aircraft (let alone fly one). The military prepares its people well. :mooner:

 

[Blackwood]

All students are exposed to Hypoxia before they're allowed to sit in an aircraft (let alone fly one). The military prepares its people well. :mooner:

Do they fly planes hypoxic? Or to they expose them to hypoxia on the safety of the ground?

I wouldn't object much (beyond the cost) to putting dive students into a chamber and narcing them out dry, but I fail to see the benefit to doing so wet. Open to opinions, though.

 

[IDS_Bill]

Do they fly planes hypoxic? Or to they expose them to hypoxia on the safety of the ground?

I wouldn't object much (beyond the cost) to putting dive students into a chamber and narcing them out dry, but I fail to see the benefit to doing so wet. Open to opinions, though.

I am an Aerospace Engineer too and I say Blackwood's analogy is silly - let it go.....

 

[Peter Guy]

I've just completed a "Techreational Workshop" (a non-course!) at my PADI shop and during the wrap-up discussion I was asked, "Where can I get more training (of this nature)?"

AndyNZ wrote

Entry level in GUE and UTD is Fundamentals/Essentials - equivalent courses do not really exist in the TDI and DSAT curriculum.

The LDS owner was standing in the door so I turned the question over to him. (He didn't like my earlier statements that the LDS had no program for further training of "this nature" and that, locally, the choices were UTD/GUE/NAUI -- all out of a different shop!) He mentioned he was not particularly pleased with my previous answers and then said, "Well, there is 'X' who comes here twice a year and you can do your Deco training with him." My response was that while 'X' is a good instructor (I've worked/taken my IDC) with him, the fact that he only comes here twice a year would be a deal breaker for me. THAT got me a sour look and the statement, "Why don't YOU become a tech instructor?" (Which, BTW, is nuts -- I'm a baby tech diver, always will be and have NO business even thinking about teaching people advanced Deco stuff -- OTOH, I think I am qualified to teach the "Fundies/Essentials" type class -- which is what the workshop is.)

So, where in "PADI WORLD" does the "Advanced Scuba Diver" get the "Techreational/Essentials" type instruction? IF you ran a PADI Dive Center, how would you feed that market?

 

[DCBC]

I wouldn't object much (beyond the cost) to putting dive students into a chamber and narcing them out dry, but I fail to see the benefit to doing so wet. Open to opinions, though.

For Pilots, this is initially done in a chamber. This is taken to the air in training, to prepare them to deal with Hypoxia, should a malfunction occur. The training model is to prepare the pilot for every reasonable foreseeable eventuality. To prepare the man for the environment that they will operate.

Similar training is conducted for military and commercial divers. We prepare the person for the environment and don't solely rely on the technology.

I have exposed most of OW SCUBA class to narcosis in a chamber. Although it's not part of the training of a new diver, a more experienced diver can learn to recognize narcosis and deal with it to various degrees. Early recognition and monitoring is the first step.

I advocate that divers use the right mixture for the right occasion. I don't however encourage them to be totally dependent on its availability when the depth of the dive may be done safely on air. If they can't do the dive safely; they shouldn't dive. I encourage that divers take deep air courses, as I believe that this is as beneficial (if not more so) than Nitrox.

I come from the old school where one is taught to learn the diving envelope of air before going to another gas. This seems to be an antiquated philosophy, with inexperienced divers diving too deep for their experience level on mixed-gas.

 

[IDS_Bill]

So, where in "PADI WORLD" does the "Advanced Scuba Diver" get the "Techreational/Essentials" type instruction? IF you ran a PADI Dive Center, how would you feed that market?

Tec40 Training through the DSAT course. That is specifically what it was set up for.

You raised a point about the LDS not having a local Tec Instructor. We are not that common, depending upon where you are. Some shops have relationships with Tec Instructors and some do not. If you are wanting to get into the Technical world, you might have to go with another shop or go private. A lot of shops don't want to deal with the equipment, training and cost of supporting technical divers.

 

[Blackwood]

I advocate that divers use the right mixture for the right occasion. I don't however encourage them to be totally dependent on its availability when the depth of the dive may be done safely on air.

So it seems to me you are saying that there are depths which do require helium. So the difference here isn't really "dependent on technology" or not, but rather where that "technology" needs to kick in.

What do you consider the tipping point? In other words, at what depth can a dive not be done safely without helium? (given that we're talking about narcosis, not oxtox, I guess I'm asking what you'd consider the maximum acceptable END).

Assume 55-60° water with currents and no hard overhead.

 

[IDS_Bill]

What do you consider the tipping point? In other words, at what depth can a dive not be done safely on air? (given that we're talking about narcosis, not oxtox, I guess I'm asking what you'd consider the maximum acceptable END).

130 is the END we normally plan to in Trimix Diving.

Blackwood - SERIOUSLY - this point has become moot by the verification that DSAT allows trimix on final cert dives (given Instructor pre-reqs are satisfied). For the sake of all that is holy and shiny in this world - let it die!