Opinions on DSAT TecRec courses

[rjack321]

If anything, it's a working concession.

Not for the tough guys.

 

[Blackwood]

The safety of today's diver seems to becoming increasingly dependent upon the technology rather than in-water ability, fitness and diver experience. I suppose that's fine until the technology lets them down.

The point of recreational training (as opposed to professional, task specific diving) is to prepare divers for the what-if scenario, not the average nothing-goes-wrong dive. That a diver chooses to use helium for a 150 foot dive doesn't mean said diver is dependent on technology (well... any more than anyone else who uses the same equipment). It means they will have that much more of their mental faculties if that what-if scenario occurs.

No matter how accosted you are to coping with narcosis, it is diminishing your mental quantity, and you will break sooner than were you not intoxicated. Most of the time, that's not a problem.

Taking a couple of weeks of instruction in [-]mixed-gas[/-] anything doesn't make a relatively inexperienced diver competent to dive [-]deeply[/-].

true enough

 

[AndyNZ]

Firstly, normoxic trimix is an option for the deeper course dives.

That's the next course.

The new DSAT standards allow the introduction of normoxic trimix on the "graduation dives" for Tec50. I haven't seen the exact wording for the standards, so I don't know the constraints (e.g. does the instructor have to be trimix trained, a trimix instructor etc) placed on it.

Tec40 can be taught in a GUE/UTD-esque style - 32% backgas and accelerated deco using up to 100% O2. Training dives are limited to 10 minutes non-adjusted deco - I'm not sure if that's a post-graduation limit as well. Tec40 has a lot of appeal - we have many wrecks in the 30m range where it's nice to have the option to introduce accelerated deco and give students the skills required to handle stage bottles and extended bottom times without having to do GUE Tech 1.

Tec45 is an interesting beast - it sits in the same camp as TDI Deco Procedures, just because it has a 45m limit doesn't mean you have to train or dive to that depth. The air/trimix debate in the 30-45m range is going to rage forever (or at least until a commercial fusion reactor starts producing unlimited supply of helium at $0.01 per litre) - everyone has their own personal opinion, I think we should respect those opinions an do our own thing. Slating agencies or individuals is just counter productive.

Sure, encourage people towards a particular agency that you feel offers the best training for them - but stick to the positives.

 

[Kevrumbo]

So what would you do if you went to Truk or somewhere that they really don't have helium? Sit on the boat and be deck fluff? I CERTAINLY agree that helium has its place but, just like nitrox, you learn to dive without it before you learn to dive with it.....

Actually it's vice versa --you should learn to dive it (helium) before making the choice to dive without it --and taking responsibility for whatever consequences may come.

I'll do an external tour down to 54m of the deep wrecks of Truk on air, eanx50 and O2 given the benign conditions (warm tropical water, good viz, no current and most of the time good weather & surface conditions ) . . .but I won't penetrate unless I'm on trimix (readily available at the Truk Stop Hotel and dive ops --at now over $4/cf, $0.14/L) and the recommended mix is 20/20 to keep costs economically feasible on open circuit (about $160 for a twinset of 11L's last year).

 

[IDS_Bill]

Actually it's vice versa --you should learn to dive it (helium) before making the choice to dive without it

Hmmm - don't think so.....

AndyNZ beat me to the post - The new DSAT Tec50 manual page 6-62 states that trimix can be used on the 165 foot dive 4...........

 

[DevonDiver]

The new DSAT standards allow the introduction of normoxic trimix on the "graduation dives" for Tec50. I haven't seen the exact wording for the standards, so I don't know the constraints (e.g. does the instructor have to be trimix trained, a trimix instructor etc) placed on it.

From what I remember,the instructor does need their trimix qual in order to put He in their students tanks for the final dives.

It would make more sense to train/enable all Tech Deep instructors to run the Tech50 course with normoxic trimix.

However, I still persdonally believe that the entire Tech Deep programme is fine on just air/nitrox. Using He for more demanding dives (i.e. wreck penetration) within that range is an argueably sensible choice.....but that is training/diving beyond the scope of the (entry-level) tech course..and would require further appropriate training.

The Tech Deep course does not in any way claim or advertise to be a wreck or overhead course...so using such examples as a basic for under-mining the validity of the course is a moot arguement.

If DSAT offered a technical wreck course...then imposing a shallower END would be a wise move. But it doesn't offer that (yet)...so it is unfair to judge the DSAT system for not covering those options (yet).

 

[Kevrumbo]

Depends where you are in the world for your training IMHO: Tec40 in the warm tropical sheltered waters of Subic Bay is fine on deep air should you so choose, but not here in the currents, cold waters and deep reefs off Southern California. I would insist on a program similar to IANTD's recreational & advanced recreational trimix; GUE's Triox; or UTD's Recreational level 3/Tech 1 --utilizing hyperoxic helium mixes like 30/30 or 25/25 with Oxygen deco. . .

 

[rjack321]

Sure, encourage people towards a particular agency that you feel offers the best training for them - but stick to the positives.

There are 3 worldwide agencies that train people in a range of gas choices, and include helium at the entry level so they have that option down the road.

DSAT does not. There's little reason to spend alot of time and effort researching whether a DSAT instructor teaches well beyond DSAT agency's minimums - which are bare bones - since there are better, more enlightened agencies and courses to choose from in the first place.

Even if DSAT keeps the air business, they REALLY need to can the DVD and get some models with decent skills to illustrate their proogram. The fact that DSAT management allowed that DVD to be published at all is really embarassing regardless of agency affiliation.

 

[AndyNZ]

There are 3 worldwide agencies that train people in a range of gas choices, and include helium at the entry level so they have that option down the road.

I disagree. Entry level in GUE and UTD is Fundamentals/Essentials - equivalent courses do not really exist in the TDI and DSAT curriculum. It may be splitting hairs, but Tec40 (and I am not a DSAT instructor) fulfills the same role, really. It's a foundational course for developing the basic skills in shallow to moderate depths.

I am very much looking forward to doing GUE Tech 1 next year, and I know roughly what to expect - the first four to six dives in 8-10m, and then 20-30m range using 32%. Only if we hit the grade will the instructor allow us to progress to the final two trimix dives - I really don't see the difference between that and the DSAT curriculum, shallow dives to develop skills leading up to a final normoxic trimix experience dive.

Like I say, I am not a DSAT instructor so I am not intimately familiar with the standards, but in essence the principles are the same.

DSAT does not. There's little reason to spend alot of time and effort researching whether a DSAT instructor teaches well beyond DSAT agency's minimums - which are bare bones - since there are better, more enlightened agencies and courses to choose from in the first place.

I say this with the utmost respect, as I have appreciated your input in many threads in the past - and this is in no way intended to be at all nasty/judgemental. But the implied arrogance in *how* you say this, even if it's not your intent is really what winds me up about pro-DIR internet (used in it's broadest sense) discussions. DSAT may not meet your standards, but what do you gain by slagging them off? My suggestion is that rather than slag them off, you gain a more credible/acceptable position by arguing *for* something as opposed to *against* something. Maybe it's just me, but I find quietly getting on with your own thing and influencing people in a way that doesn't cause abrasion ends up with the best results in the long run.

Even if DSAT keeps the air business, they REALLY need to can the DVD and get some models with decent skills to illustrate their proogram. The fact that DSAT management allowed that DVD to be published at all is really embarassing regardless of agency affiliation.

Personally, I tend to agree about the DVD... it is one of the reasons why I teach TDI rather than DSAT. But extol the virtues of classes like Fundies and Essentials, it can be done in a way that is positive.....


My apologies if this comes across in a way not that I intended. I just don't find it constructive to be so judgmental.

 

[DevonDiver]

There are 3 worldwide agencies that train people in a range of gas choices, and include helium at the entry level so they have that option down the road. .

SSI do in the TechXR programme. DSAT can.

Seems you are to set in your opinion to actually read this thread or do some real research about what agencies offer what.

DSAT does not. There's little reason to spend alot of time and effort researching whether a DSAT instructor teaches well beyond DSAT agency's minimums - which are bare bones - since there are better, more enlightened agencies and courses to choose from in the first place..

A comment like that invalidates half the tech instructors on the planet. Unsurprisingly, they would all be instructors that do not fit the 'model' of what you determine as 'good'.

Sounds a lot like the retro-DIR harumpf that was spewed onto the internet in the early days of GUE.

As AndyNZ said....if you are so enlightened, how about adding something positive to the discussion, rather than silly, petulant and narrow minded diatribe...

Even if DSAT keeps the air business, they REALLY need to can the DVD and get some models with decent skills to illustrate their proogram. The fact that DSAT management allowed that DVD to be published at all is really embarassing regardless of agency affiliation.

Does a DVD make or break a programme? really?

Yes, it could be improved......but so could the GUE manuals...or the cheap photocopied pieces of tat offered by TDI.

I say, three cheers for DSAT for investing the time. effort and money in producing a comprehensive, well-detailed and professional manual that far exceeds the quality offered by most other agencies. Not bad for a first edition....and the addition / replacement of a few photos would make it damn near perfect for the level /goal it is aiming at.