Opinions on DSAT TecRec courses

[Blackwood]

130 is the END we normally plan to in Trimix Diving.

Thanks, though what I'm asking is: what's the highest END (i.e. depth) you'll plan for non-trimix diving?

And why the difference?

Blackwood - SERIOUSLY - this point has become moot by the verification that DSAT allows trimix on final cert dives (given Instructor pre-reqs are satisfied).

The point is only moot if a DSAT student who breathes trimix on his final cert dives is subsequently allowed (i.e. "certified") to buy trimix fills.

For the sake of all that is holy and shiny in this world - let it die!

Where would the the fun in that be?

 

[DCBC]

What do you consider the tipping point? In other words, at what depth can a dive not be done safely on air? (given that we're talking about narcosis, not oxtox, I guess I'm asking what you'd consider the maximum acceptable END).

That depends upon the individual diver and his training. Other mitigating factors are cold, work level, stress, CO2 retention and rate of compression.

For me I'd say my short-term maximum is 250', as I start having difficulty with direction. Most commercial divers are fine to work at 180 to 200' on air and be productive (in the U.S. this is permitted by OSHA regulations). After 200' a Hypoxic Trimix or Heliox is usually used.

 

[DCBC]

...what I'm asking is: what's the highest END (i.e. depth) you'll plan for non-trimix diving?

And why the difference?

The difference is that the commercial diver learns to use the safe envelope of air before thinking he needs mixed-gas. I'm sorry to say this, but if I used Trimix for a 130 foot dive I'd be laughed out of the profession.

That said, for a recreational diver who wants it all and wants it right now, mixed gas allows him to go deep quickly. This can be expected in a Society based upon instant gratification.

The commercial industry would consider this a hazard, as they feel that divers should be fully trained and experienced on air before going deep.

 

[IDS_Bill]

The point is only moot if a DSAT student who breathes trimix on his final cert dives is subsequently allowed (i.e. "certified") to buy trimix fills.

We like to call that a trimix cert... Would you argue that an open water student should go venturing into a cave without cave training?

Blackwood, I sympathize with your situation. For you the Monster you call Narcosis is a big scary beast... Perhaps you might consider the fact that technical Diving is not for everyone......?

 

[Blackwood]

We like to call that a trimix cert... Would you argue that an open water student should go venturing into a cave without cave training?

Nope.

On the one hand, you have a handful of agencies which train and certify divers to use trimix to depth X. On the other hand, you have at least one agency which certifies divers to use air/nitrox to that same depth. Your prior post suggested that those things are the same because students are potentially allowed to use trimix for two dives during their training.

 

[Blackwood]

The difference is that the commercial diver learns to use the safe envelope of air before thinking he needs mixed-gas. I'm sorry to say this, but if I used Trimix for a 130 foot dive I'd be laughed out of the profession.

Being laughed at aside, why would you plan for a shallower END on trimix than you would on non-trimix (working dives notwithstanding since we're discussing recreational training here).

I'm not arguing against doing so, just trying to understand the logic. Is it that you are less worried about the consequences of narc-related accidents in shallower water?

That said, for a recreational diver who wants it all and wants it right now, mixed gas allows him to go deep quickly. This can be expected in a Society based upon instant gratification.

We're talking about training to the same depth range in the same time frame. Only difference is what gases are used, not how long it takes to get there.

 

[DevonDiver]

So, where in "PADI WORLD" does the "Advanced Scuba Diver" get the "Techreational/Essentials" type instruction? IF you ran a PADI Dive Center, how would you feed that market?

As others have mentioned, the sub-division of the tech deep course allows the Tech40 to set and/or polish the core skills.

In addition to this, there is an official 'Intro To Tech' speciality aimed at the recreational market as a 'techreational' style 'taster' of the skills and drills.

 

[DCBC]

Being laughed at aside, why would you plan for a shallower END on trimix than you would on non-trimix (working dives notwithstanding since we're discussing recreational training here).

I think you lost me. I haven't done any END calculations.

We're talking about training to the same depth range in the same time frame. Only difference is what gases are used, not how long it takes to get there.

As I mentioned, I'm not aware of all recreational technical standards. It was my impression that trimix was primarily designed to be used to depths deeper than 130' by the tech agencies. Am I wrong in this assumption? I know we are talking primarily about DSAT, but are you suggesting that all agencies teaching to a maximum depth of 130', regardless of mixture? Sorry for my confusion.

 

[Rainer]

At least GUE and UTD teach to a maximum END of 100'. When the SHTF is where you get to see how smart you are while under the influences of narcosis. Just about anyone can function well drunk/stoned/narced when everything is going as planned. Helium is your ace in the hole when situations go sideways.

 

[AndyNZ]

So, where in "PADI WORLD" does the "Advanced Scuba Diver" get the "Techreational/Essentials" type instruction? IF you ran a PADI Dive Center, how would you feed that market?

As others have pointed out, Tec40 could be used to fill this gap - but I don't think it is what you are looking for. Tec40 is a tech course, using O2 for accelerated decompression etc. Personally, I think you could teach this very well, Peter.... but the practicalities of you becoming a DSAT Tec Instructor probably make it a blind alley to follow. Logistically, it's probably easier for you to become a UTD instructor.

I think you already know my answer to your question - firstly, you can teach the "techreational" stuff in the existing courses with no problems at all. You can teach gas management in AOW, you can teach fin kicks and team positioning in PPB, you can introduce any equipment you like at any stage; you can even teach an OW course in BP/W and long hose. The challenge isn't how you feed the market, it's how you educate them that the extra time and commitment to do your AOW as opposed to the shorter and cheaper AOW down the road. That is a big challenge, particularly in the "standard" courses.

Of course, you have the option to write your own courses to suit - I really like Don's April fool from a few years ago about the PADI DIR diver, but why not? There are approved distinctive specialties out there for twin tank diving, for 'tec essentials' and other related topics. Work out what you want to teach, write the course and go for it. We've done quite well at this - with the self reliant diver course, and more recently our new Advanced Wreck Diver Course.

You will, of course, be accused of greasing the wheels of the put another dollar in machine - why go to the effort of writing an advanced wreck course when there is already a UTD progression that covers this. Realistically, you just have to consider the logistics involved in the various options open to you and pick the right one.