Open Water Training at Blue Grotto

[kensuf]

I've been in the same boat as Timmy, where I was told to use BG for the deep dive in an advanced class by the place I was teaching for, and like him, I refused to do it. Good on ya' Tim!

I'll use the openwater portion of Blue Grotto for an OW course, there are things to love about it. A dock to practice giant strides, descent lines to the platforms, and a relatively controlled environment (unless you're there on a weekend). I also like to use all of Blue Grotto for AN/DP or CCR, there's plenty of places for skills evaluation and development.

Unfortunately, options are limited when wanting to go below 100'. I wind up using Hudson Grotto for a lot of that -- there's a platform at 100' with a descent line to it, and you can hit 135' on the sides if you know where to go. The biggest problem with Hudson is the poor visibility (10' typical). But there's also an advantage in that it's a great training environment.

I'm heading to Hudson today to wrap up an AN/DP course in Hudson Grotto, actually...

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Did I report the operation... uuumm NO... the operation (Blue Grotto) is not regulated by PADI... and everyone would deny that American Pro ever did ANYTHING wrong... Like I said, they generate a LOT of cash for PADI...

When I was on the BoD for the NACD we sent a letter to PADI & American Pro about open water training being conducted at Eagles' Nest. After the letter was sent American Pro did cease to do training of this nature at Eagles' Nest. This was circa 10 years ago and things may have devolved since then.

Jon was the rep that "gave" the waiver.... within weeks of retiring... and yes I know reps can't give waivers...
Yes I have confirmed with PADI, actually did it on speaker phone so BG Owner could hear them say it!!! I already knew.

Can you recall who was on the other end of that phone call with PADI?

I do not think the PADI regional reps have the authority to grant waivers like this, as you stated. Of course that may not stop one from saying it.

The point I am making is that I do not believe that PADI headquarters has sanctioned this waiver and that it does not actually exist.

 

[Imbodie]

When I was on the BoD for the NACD we sent a letter to PADI & American Pro about open water training being conducted at Eagles' Nest. After the letter was sent American Pro did cease to do training of this nature at Eagles' Nest. This was circa 10 years ago and things may have devolved since then.



Can you recall who was on the other end of that phone call with PADI?

I do not think the PADI regional reps have the authority to grant waivers like this, as you stated. Of course that may not stop one from saying it.

The point I am making is that I do not believe that PADI headquarters has sanctioned this waiver and that it does not actually exist.

One of the many PADI reps that take those calls...

They do not have authority and PADI did not sanction this... and it does not exist...

They (PADI) has continued to turn a blind eye towards the issue of the BG being used for Deep and giving the Owner the impression that is is OK to continue to tell people that PADI said it was ok.... along with the multitudes of instructors (not just PADI instructors) who continue the practice.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

One of the many PADI reps that take those calls...

They do not have authority and PADI did not sanction this... and it does not exist...

They (PADI) has continued to turn a blind eye towards the issue of the BG being used for Deep and giving the Owner the impression that is is OK to continue to tell people that PADI said it was ok.... along with the multitudes of instructors (not just PADI instructors) who continue the practice.

If this is what you believe to be the case then we have a responsibility to bring this to the attention to supervisors in the training department. PADI Americas training administers training over the majority of the western hemisphere.

You have the names and e-mails for all the PADI guys who are in charge of this stuff in the southeast USA and Florida via the PADI Pros website. I encourage you to send each of them e-mail outlining your observations and what you have witnessed.

These guys will not turn a blind eye in the face of factual, eye witness representations.

 

[Caveeagle]

Last time I was at BG, I saw an OW class that was so large, there was two waves of students being escorted in/out of the water while the(1) instructor did skills check-offs in water. I'm not sure if there is anything wrong with this.. just observing the volume how people seem to be leveraging the facilities there.

I don't disagree with opposition to teaching OW/AOW in the overhead. I just think this is somewhat linked to this "grey" area that seems allows OW divers into places like Blue Grotto, Ginnie Ball Room and Paradise. There is absolutely nothing stopping, or discouraging even the newest newbie from going well beyond open water in all these sites.

What is it about these sites that makes this OK? I know that BG has hardwired lighting to help illuminate the upper cavern, and that Ginnie Ballroom is super clear with virtually no silt. I am still very uneasy with the risk that exists in these sites. ..Not just for students of OW/AOW.

So I guess my point is, if these spots are OK for people who lack specific cavern/overhead training, I can certainly understand how the line has gotten blurred.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I just think this is somewhat linked to this "grey" area that seems allows OW divers into places like Blue Grotto, Ginnie Ball Room

Neither Ginnie Springs Outdoors nor PADI sanction O/W training in the ballroom at Ginnie.

 

[Caveeagle]

Neither Ginnie Springs Outdoors nor PADI sanction O/W training in the ballroom at Ginnie.

And I don't remember observing that. The point I was trying to make.. Was that if the 50-60' cavern areas of BG or Paradise are considered safe for (certified) OW divers, I can see why some try to extend this to AOW training. I'm not saying its right.. just thinking through the "why".

I really don't see OW divers going into the back/bottom of any of these cavern sites as "safe". But if we are going to allow a lack of deaths to justify these exceptions, then we should not be surprised when somebody tries to use BG(or paradise) as a AOW / deep site.

Loosely related, but I was in the Ginnie Ball Room recently playing around with some gear changes, and two (apparent) OW divers tried to follow me down to the bottom/back of the cavern because they did not have any lights. As soon as I realized they were following me, I stopped and covered my light until they backed off towards the daylight zone. A couple minutes later they tried to "sneak" down again, using my light to allow them to see. I just swam back out towards the daylight zone because I just don't want to encourage the bad behavior for divers that don't even carry one light per team. *Just an example of the stupid stuff that happens in this "grey" area.

 

[Jack Hammer]

My recollection is that OW divers are not "allowed" to carry lights at Ginnie.

 

[PfcAJ]

And I don't remember observing that. The point I was trying to make.. Was that if the 50-60' cavern areas of BG or Paradise are considered safe for (certified) OW divers, I can see why some try to extend this to AOW training. I'm not saying its right.. just thinking through the "why".

I really don't see OW divers going into the back/bottom of any of these cavern sites as "safe". But if we are going to allow a lack of deaths to justify these exceptions, then we should not be surprised when somebody tries to use BG(or paradise) as a AOW / deep site.

Loosely related, but I was in the Ginnie Ball Room recently playing around with some gear changes, and two (apparent) OW divers tried to follow me down to the bottom/back of the cavern because they did not have any lights. As soon as I realized they were following me, I stopped and covered my light until they backed off towards the daylight zone. A couple minutes later they tried to "sneak" down again, using my light to allow them to see. I just swam back out towards the daylight zone because I just don't want to encourage the bad behavior for divers that don't even carry one light per team. *Just an example of the stupid stuff that happens in this "grey" area.

The owners of BG, GSO, Paradise, consider it "safe" because they want the income.

Certain shops and instructors consider it safe because they want the income.

A smart instructor wouldn't use any of those sites for OW training (exception of BG open water and the basin/ runs at GSO). They'd loose everything if someone got hurt or killed in their class if they were in an overhead environment.

But they do it because they want the income.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I was in the Ginnie Ball Room recently playing around with some gear changes, and two (apparent) OW divers tried to follow me down to the bottom/back of the cavern because they did not have any lights.

I have had these same type divers follow me into Devil's Ear - to the Lips before I had to escort them back to daylight.
They just don't know what they don't know.