New access rules to Eagles Nest and Burford.

[boulderjohn]

It was those two I have been referring too. The public needs to hold them accountable for their own actions. Their actions killed them not the cave.

I was recently surprised to encounter a thread discussing that incident in a forum outside of the diving community. Their family members were in the thread leading the charge to have the cave closed. To the diving community as a whole (including divers with no cave training), they were foolish, untrained divers whose actions killed them. To the non-diving public, including the family, these were highly trained cave diving experts killed by an unacceptably dangerous cave. The comments in the thread were almost unanimous in favor of closing the cave, with only occasional posts to the contrary by divers, posts immediately discounted by others.

For the family to say otherwise, they would have to admit publicly that their dearly departed loved ones were foolish, untrained risk takers diving far beyond their limitations.

 

[oldschoolto]

I don't think the caves care how much experience and training you have.. if the only people dieing were people without the cards I would say you have a good point about this...

I'm in no way saying that people without the time and experience should be in a cave or wrecks.. I only point out the facts that cave divers think that the other cave divers are a bunch of losers... Sitting on the outside... It looks like kids in kindergarten...

Jim..

 

[Joneill]

The problem is the media... The media sensationalized these stories for click bait. They created the buzz that something needs to be done, and the public buys in and we get to where we are today.

Agreed - but it is also the lack of personal repsonsibilty/accountability that seems to be so pervasive in our society today. Folks do some really stupid things these days and then look to blame it on others and play the victim. In that case, the blame should lie squarely at the feet of the father for putting them in the situation that killed them - but that dialogue would not play well in the public eye or with the family as it's easier to blame the "evil" cave and feel sorry for the "poor" pair of divers...

 

[PfcAJ]

I don't think the caves care how much experience and training you have.. if the only people dieing were people without the cards I would say you have a good point about this...

I'm in no way saying that people without the time and experience should be in a cave or wrecks.. I only point out the facts that cave divers think that the other cave divers are a bunch of losers... Sitting on the outside... It looks like kids in kindergarten...

Jim..

Just having a cave cert isn't enough to give you access to all caves.

EN is not Ginnie Springs.

 

[KevinNM]

I'd argue that 2 of the 3 statements regarding the double fatality last October are correct, experience is the one I'd argue against. My understanding is they had less than 5 dives total in the system and they were going to a place that his bit more than one person in the ass.

You certainly know more than me about this. I thought they were guys who dived it every weekend.

 

[Caveeagle]

.. I only point out the facts that cave divers think that the other cave divers are a bunch of losers... Sitting on the outside... It looks like kids in kindergarten...

Jim..

How much time do you actually spend around real cave cave divers? ..comments like this are a big part of the problem.

Clicks and ticks will exist whenever you have more than three humans running around in the same circle. It's just part of life. Maybe cave politics get worse because of a few factors, but I have found you can either fan the flames, making it worse, or do your best to operate with humility and kindness to others. I'm sure I have been guilty of the former, but try very hard to check myself.

..And especially keep it positive on the internet where everything you say can get magnified by 100x in a matter of minutes.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Cave divers may obtain a permit online where they will self-attest to being full cave, trimix, and one hundred post cert. dives or equivalent.

Firstly, I guess you like others are a volunteer, and thus any time you give freely to the community should be applauded.

I first saw the "solution" posted, and thought like others, "that will never work" But the more I think about it, the cleverer I think it is.

Take the Father and Son. If their incident had occurred if this solution had been in force then they would have been accountable more to themselves. If someone has an incident and has lied about their cert to gain a permit, they know they shouldn't be there and of course there is a record that they lied about their certs.

Smart solution ...

 

[blac86]

Irresponsible divers making Diving harder and more expensive for anyone. I don't feel bad for people that die in caves, I'm pissed that they are so self important and stupid that they make diving worse for everyone. I don't care if you're in your first cave dive or if youre Wes Skiles, if you die in a cave because you're stupid and have an ego then you made diving worse for everyone.

 

[The Chairman]

As an Aow diver I know better that to dive a cave

I was there many years ago... after all, it's in a pond. There were four of us total, but I was the only caver. In fact, I was the only one certified beyond OW. Two out of the other three divers thought going down the rabbit hole was acceptable. Why? It looked deceptively easy. Me? I could hear the reaper laughing and couldn't get them out of there quick enough. There's nothing in that pond to see either. The only interesting feature is that rabbit hole. I won't go back until I meet all the quals and I feel this is a GREAT way to keep the ignorant out.

​

Thanks to the NSS-CDS for doing this. I am confident that this will save lives. For those who rail against the added regulations: Toughie Kaboombas. The regulations were designed to keep YOU out, so mission accomplished.

 

[Six Feet Under]

The locals don't know the difference between divers with 50 cave dives or 500 cave dives.. They just see that no matter how good you are.. Diving in Eagle nest can kill you and it needs to be closed.. You guys opened that door.. I can't wait till you cave divers start calling the game warden on each other... And they start locking up the caves off the ballroom.. As the old saying goes... Watch what you ask for..

Jim..

I wouldn't have a problem with that, if it keeps the system open until I'm at the level required to dive it one day. The way the ballroom is (regarding the debris mound's shape and the depth), there is no way this is anything but an advanced full-cave dive. There is nowhere to go once you get through the solution tube and into the ballroom. Any video of someone's dive starting from the steps will show you this - you swim through the basin, go down the tube, and it's straight open darkness until you hit approximately 130 feet at the top of the mound... right there, you're maxed out as a "basic" full cave certified diver.

Did something happen at Buford sink too? Or is it being regulated just because it's in the same county? (Sorry for being out of the loop)

It's in the same management area (so it's also managed by FWC) and being that it is actually a cavern environment (and 165ish feet deep), I think they're simply trying to head the next group of morons off at the pass that say "well, we can't get in to Eagle's Nest, let's go to Buford instead" and kill themselves in there instead.

Now you have non Divers wanting to close the system off because of the actions of a few. I guess what I am trying to get at is non Divers need to do a little research before taking action such as closing down a dive spot that appears to be popular with a few Divers on this forum. And how can you call it a killer cave it does not feel it does not breathe and the people that have died there have pushed their skills to far and paid the price. Kinda like climbers on K2 the killer mountain. Sorry for rambling.

Neil

Come on man, you know we can't advocate personal responsibility and doing research on something so you have some actual facts before you start blasting your emotionally-driven opinion all over the internet! [sarcasm] They DIED, is that not enough for you, you animal?! [/sarcasm]

Irresponsible divers making Diving harder and more expensive for anyone. I don't feel bad for people that die in caves, I'm pissed that they are so self important and stupid that they make diving worse for everyone. I don't care if you're in your first cave dive or if youre Wes Skiles, if you die in a cave because you're stupid and have an ego then you made diving worse for everyone.

Pretty much how I feel. This is probably why I'll never be a PIO or public position of any major organization like FWC... I'd be tempted to tell those individuals that had a problem with Eagle's Nest being open (or any other site where they were clamoring for a complete site closure) that their family members/friends were the ones that caused their own deaths and quite frankly, no one else is responsible for their stupidity.

I feel bad for people who have legit medical conditions, or do something inadvertently and get injured/killed.... but when you are purposefully as stupid as being open water trained and leading a non-trained "diver" on a 233 foot deep cave dive... yeah, I can't say anything nice.