'Open Water' only sidemount BCDs: Your opinions?

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Peace keeping curve ball for the up vs down hose routing….

There’s an easy solution here for hose routing involving the LPI mechanism used on the Hog Gear BCs – see attached image below:

Hog LPI.jpg

The Hog LPI is on the right, the standard k-style LPI is on the left. Basically the Hog connection for the LPI hose rotates on it's axis, allowing both top and bottom hoses to be attached with easy routing.

Aren’t Hog awesome?
 
And here I was thinking I was supposed to use LP inflator "pipes". I'm really holding out for hoseless inflators though :)

Another configuration consideration/determiner is that of cold water vs warm water. I noted Karl's comments regarding the right tank not having an LP hose (for handing off) but in cold water it will almost always have a DS whip. Also, I have moved to Lamar's ring system because it is easier to manipulate with thick gloves.

I also use the basic reg hose routing concepts that both Lamar and Brian Kakuk show in their videos. Both have the long hose coming off the left behind the head and the shorter hose straight up from the right tank.

I just don't get Andy's disconnect. I use 22" hoses that come off the first stage, under the harness and plug directly into my LPI. No more bends than a bottom one. In the mean time, here's a short clip I shot for someone else to review their rig (I cut them out).

As noted earlier, the clipped off reg hangs too low as the result of my just adding an Omni swivel but not adjusting the clip further up towards the second stage (that I've corrected) and the long hose behind my head is a little loose and sloppy - truth be told I was focusing on the other divers experience with his kit and not tidying myself up.

But you can see the bottom LPI and how the LP hose routes to it.
You can see the clean routing of the reg hoses and the LP hoses and how there is no cluster F.
I can orally inflate the wing.
One can nit pick if they wish but I looked at the plastic clips Hollis uses to secure their bottom LPI across the chest and I prefer my look. If snagging ever became an issue I could even tuck the LPI under my harness.

I don't know about lower training standards - I ain't never had none.

[video=youtube;RSnoLfTsEGw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnoLfTsEGw[/video]

Pro's:

It works.
It cost $30 (plus some stuff I had in the workshop).
It allows me to work all the operational kinks out of diving SM so when I do buy a rig, I'll know exactly what I want.
I can donate as I would with a long hose.
It works.

Cons:

The donut wing tacos up near the shoulders when filled.
 
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Aren’t Hog awesome?

I'm impressed. That does make the routing simpler and more straightforward for top-mounted LPIs.

Now.. back to the issue of 'promoting' top LPIs because they're familiar to back-mounted divers.... Hog only need to invent an elasticated/stretchy LP hose - so that those divers can raise and dump the LPI above their head....as they might be led to believe they could. :wink:
 
Attaching a LP hose to the bottom of the top mounted LPI would ensure you could not vent properly. You would have hoses pulling from two different directions. Just think about it for a second. Like most everything you've written on the subject, this is what happens when someone who doesn't dive a system thinks they know that system.

Look at the video - do you really believe I can't vent my wing or are you just incapable of admitting top mounted LPI's aren't an issue no matter what is shown?
 
Attaching a LP hose to the bottom of the top mounted LPI would ensure you could not vent properly. You would have hoses pulling from two different directions. Just think about it for a second. Like most everything you've written on the subject, this is what happens when someone who doesn't dive a system thinks they know that system.

Disaster! You're right! Oh, no wait - there's a dump vent on the bottom of the bladder? :lotsalove:
 
I also use the basic reg hose routing concepts that both Lamar and Brian Kakuk show in their videos. Both have the long hose coming off the left behind the head and the shorter hose straight up from the right tank.

I don't really see a benefit to Lamar's approach. The majority of new sidemount divers currently are cross-overs from BM at tech levels. Those people have ingrained skills routing the long-hose from the right hip area and around, with a short hose from the left on bungee. i.e. A typical hogarthian reg set-up. It makes sense to preserve that capability - and there is vast support for it's use, based on pros and cons. I'm not sure why sidemount would change that formula...

I just don't get Andy's disconnect.

It probably stems from a different perception. You're an experienced diver - sufficiently so to improvise and refine your own workable SM rig (as I did). Your (our) experience allows us to problem solve, based upon significant conceptual understanding of the issues involved.

Where we differ is that I teach sidemount. That provides me with experience of a large sample of less experienced divers....and how they adapt to sidemount diving. I see the problems, frustrations and pit-falls that more experienced divers, like you and I, would solve instinctively and without drama.

I see an issue with hose routing from top-mounted LPIs. That's not hypothesis...I literally see it... in novice sidemount students during training. I see them get snarled up with hoses. I see them bruise their armpits because they can't rotate their tanks forwards without convoluted hoses/clips pinching their soft under-arms. I seem them struggle to access their D-rings, bungees etc..


But you can see the bottom LPI and how the LP hose routes to it.
You can see the clean routing of the reg hoses and the LP hoses and how there is no cluster F.
I can orally inflate the wing.

Agree... but do you think a brand-new sidemount diver could achieve the same? If said diver were also inexperienced in scuba generally?

The agencies are pushing sidemount into the recreational mainstream. The manufacturers picked up that ball and are running with it. Consider OW, OW etc divers moving into sidemount... that is, after all, exactly who these 'blue water/open water/sport' SM BCDs are being sold too...

Just a question on your LPI.... can you fully raise the LPI above your head to dump air in a manner akin to what novice recreational jacket BCD divers might be familiar with?

I believe that is the assumption that potential purchasers of 'sport/OW' SM BCDs will have, based on how they are marketed with the top-LPI. To do so would require an excessively long LP hose (capable of reaching from sidemount reg, to above the divers' head)... hence... CF bendy hoses.

A minor observation, but your LPI config does cause a slight "morning wood" effect... it's a little 'erect' away from your chest. Shows tension caused by the hose. Maybe a minor issue... but it's one more thing to get snagged on a DSMB line as you pop a bag (not talking about overheads/guidelines either).

One can nit pick if they wish but I looked at the plastic clips Hollis uses to secure their bottom LPI across the chest and I prefer my look. If snagging ever became an issue I could even tuck the LPI under my harness.

The Hollis clip method is an abomination. Every student I had so far took one look at mine (some bungee and a bolt snap) and immediately made the change. Some students opt to run the LPI straight upwards (especially with Hollis, which has a short, stiff corrugated hose). Some run them across the chest, like I do. I find this very intuitive - easy to find and manipulate... very entanglement avoiding..

I don't know about lower training standards - I ain't never had none.

When considering the issues... I also have to consider how students will be taught to deal with those issues. As more recreational divers embrace sidemount, especially at lesser experience levels, you have to assume that the minimum training standards will represent the baseline norm of experience, known skills and conceptual awareness.

Pro's:

It works.
It cost $30 (plus some stuff I had in the workshop).

I have the same opinions of my DIY rig. Except mine cost $100 extra for an OMS Profile adapter.... so I could rule out:

The donut wing tacos up near the shoulders when filled.

I like the Profile also because it does provide some real protection when wriggling in the wrecks. It's covered with gouges and deep scrapes (and rust stains). I think my bladder/wing would have been toast long ago, without it..

Some use of bungee retainers also helps 'shape' the wing... retaining more buoyancy at the bottom, less at the top. That tends to suit sidemount trim very well. A pic of my rig:

2013-02-04 15.40.37 [].jpg2013-02-04 15.40.10 [].jpg


It allows me to work all the operational kinks out of diving SM so when I do buy a rig, I'll know exactly what I want

The one thing mine taught me was that there wasn't any SM rigs out there that were exactly what I want! :wink: LOL
 
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SM-Dale.jpg

A: Routing the short hose from the right prevents it wrapping the neck. The hose dangles below unsupported. If detached from the necklace, it drops entirely below the diver/cylinder. I don't encourage this on sidemount courses because it risks entanglement/entrapment and regulator damage...and not least, can leave the diver without immediately accessible regulator. Whilst entanglement/entrapment aren't primary risks for open-water divers, I attempt to train to higher standards - in the presumption that students might one day enter a wreck (not uncommon, even for recreational divers).

B: Routing the long hose from the left reduces the divers' ability to tension it across/around the torso. Movement of the cylinder, or slack in the deployed length of hose (that not tucked into cylinder bungees) causes 'bowing'. This is evident in your video. Another entanglement/entrapment/hose damage issue. Using a right cylinder long hose, I eliminate this problem with my students. I don't see this 'bowing' at all.

Here's my Tec Sidemount student from last week. He was prior AOW qualified and this was dive #3 of the course.. notice, zero instance of protruding hoses:

tec-sidemount-subic.jpg

Another pic, this time of me (was a 'pose'..hovering inverted just below the surface, rotate pic upside-down, to give impression of hover above water..LOL) - but... zero hose protrudence...

sidemount-inverted.jpg
 
Disaster! You're right! Oh, no wait - there's a dump vent on the bottom of the bladder? :lotsalove:

Hey, that's what I use. It's why I see this whole issue as being much ado about nothing.

Andy,
I've never had my bungee'd hose fall out. If it did however, I would see it pretty quickly.
The long hose on the left is easily squared away by simply tugging on the loop in the tank bands. Donation is exactly the same as one routed around the torso from the right.
The inflator does what it wants. If I was worried about entanglement potential I would just tuck it inside my harness.
If I were teaching sidemount, or even backmount, I would not teach people to dump from the LPI exclusively. I would show them all the possibilities so they could take full advantage of their equipment.

Your images don't show much regarding the hose routing either way.
 
View attachment 148280

A: Routing the short hose from the right prevents it wrapping the neck. The hose dangles below unsupported. If detached from the necklace, it drops entirely below the diver/cylinder. I don't encourage this on sidemount courses because it risks entanglement/entrapment and regulator damage...and not least, can leave the diver without immediately accessible regulator. Whilst entanglement/entrapment aren't primary risks for open-water divers, I attempt to train to higher standards - in the presumption that students might one day enter a wreck (not uncommon, even for recreational divers).

B: Routing the long hose from the left reduces the divers' ability to tension it across/around the torso. Movement of the cylinder, or slack in the deployed length of hose (that not tucked into cylinder bungees) causes 'bowing'. This is evident in your video. Another entanglement/entrapment/hose damage issue. Using a right cylinder long hose, I eliminate this problem with my students. I don't see this 'bowing' at all.

Here's my Tec Sidemount student from last week. He was prior AOW qualified and this was dive #3 of the course.. notice, zero instance of protruding hoses:

View attachment 148295

Another pic, this time of me (was a 'pose'..hovering inverted just below the surface, rotate pic upside-down, to give impression of hover above water..LOL) - but... zero hose protrudence...

View attachment 148296

Hoses look good, but the out of trim tanks are a bigger concern. And if I can make a suggestion about your rig, I would shorten your cam band connections and it might help keep your bottles in better control and switching to loop or ring bungees which will help getting the tank valve in the right position.

Also I used to have my spgs hanging down like that too, I got caught up a couple of times on them and have since switched my hose routing to better streamline the tanks. Just a suggestion.

---------- Post added February 20th, 2013 at 11:41 PM ----------

I was referring to the pic of your student, not the picture of you inverted.
 
Hoses look good, but the out of trim tanks are a bigger concern.

Look closely...

Pic #1: The upper right tank is a deco tank. The primary are moderately well trimmed. The deco isn't in trim because the Hollis SMS50 doesn't have adjustable waist D-ring. This was later rectified by the addition of further D-rings to the waist harness. The SMS50 takes a bit of tweaking from out-of-the-box, especially when jumped straight into tec. The deco tank is rigged as per Jeff Loflin - the band (worm clamp) is the middle one, the two straddling it are hose retainers.

I try and show multiple methods/options for deco rigging during the course... top/bottom, and various rigging options - this was the student's first play around with this method. The Tec Sidemount functions as a Sidemount + Intro Tec for recreational divers... so I give them choices to play with after qualification... to allow practice and refinement before they come back for tec proper (in sidemount). I don't insist they replicate my preferences...as long as they can make it work..and aren't short-cutting due to skill deficit. Why deny them the fun of their own R+D? :D

Pic #2: I'm upside-down. LMAO. Nothing is rising :wink:

I was referring to the pic of your student, not the picture of you inverted.

Ah.. you did notice! :D
 

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