Only get one chance to start this fascinating sport....

[padiscubapro]

fins wake once bubbled...
There have been instances of people learning to dive directly on SC (in Germany for the purposes of a Tauchen magazine feature), but I can't recollect anybody learning - officially - straight on CC (at least not in the civilian sports diving sector). I'm not aware of the APD example, but I'd be very surprised if this were true. Most introductory CC training standards require Advanced Nitrox or similar and a minimum number of dives, usually in the order of at least 50-70.

With all due respect, it's difficult to believe Trixter is not a troll, especially with the Steam Machines comment (well the PADI comment as well ... uh, actually most comments).

For the truly inquisitive, though, there was a great (serious) thread along these lines - i.e. when to go CC - on the DiveOz forum a while back.

Yes,
One person at APD started diving on a CCR. This person had NO diving experience prior to starting work, learned the Inspiration and eventually got a "open water " card while doing the dives on the inspiration (got a written waivor) and was actually diving the unit for some time before being officially certified..

 

[Doof]

Trixter once bubbled...
However; it has been noted by some very distinguished sources that all the OC experience in the world offers NO advantage when training to use a CCR. A comprehensive knowledge of gas physics and dive physiology is perhaps more important as noted below.

"On the other hand, a good working knowledge of gas physics and diving physiology is probably more important for rebreather diving than for open-circuit mixed gas diving. -SNIP-"(Richard L. Pyle. IANTD http://www.iantd.com/rebreather/lgrb.html)

The above quote from their website illustrates my point very well no?

Actually, no, it doesn't.

What it does say is that knowledge of gas physics and diving physiology are more important to a rebreather diver than it is to an OC diver. Nowhere in that paragraph is there anything that states that OC experience is either not necessary or detrimental to a RB diver.

 

[fins wake]

... one learns something new every day.

One person at APD started diving on a CCR. This person had NO diving experience prior to starting work, learned the Inspiration and eventually got a "open water " card while doing the dives on the inspiration (got a written waivor) and was actually diving the unit for some time before being officially certified..

Of course, any manufacturer such as APD has all the possibilities of waiving requirements if needed (after all, a certification is not a legal requirement for diving). The person doing the course would also have access to some very good instructors at - or through - APD, so why not?

Still, for 99,99% of people out there, including Trixter, this extreme approach is hardly the way to go.

and he has done his homework folks,

This is good! I'm Trixter will make a fine diver. The theoretical aspects of diving are much under-rated.

 

[cobaltbabe]

fins wake once bubbled...
[BThe theoretical aspects of diving are much under-rated. [/B]

This is true but no matter how much theory and book knowledge you have, when you are under water and something happens, no amount of reading can prepare you. You have to have your body trained for these situations. I believe I have heard it called muscle memory, but I could be wrong. You have to be able to stay calm.

 

[Trixter]

"Many experienced open-circuit divers who are new to rebreathers may fall into the "trap" of overconfidence. While vast amounts of open-circuit diving experience can increase a person’s over-all comfort level in the water and enhance one’s respect for the hazards of sub aquatic forays, these qualities alone are insufficient for consistent rebreather survival. Diving with closed-circuit rebreathers differs considerably from open-circuit diving in many respects, ranging from methods of buoyancy control, to gas monitoring habits, to emergency procedures. Development of the proper knowledge, skills, and experience takes time and practice, regardless of how many open-circuit dives (mixed-gas or otherwise) one has successfully completed."(Richard L. Pyle IANTD) http://www.iantd.com/rebreather/lgrb.html

Just one last comment to add to the mix.

Cheers!

 

[cobaltbabe]

Please know I am saying this as a friend and that I know you are going to be diving dry.

For those who dive in Ontario, the conditions are cold. Those of us who dive "wet" know what it is like to have your muscles start to slow. You can't honestly tell me that the person who wrote that quote first off would be diving in the conditions that we do, and didn't have a vast amount of knowledge about the entire scope of diving. I still stick by my guns. There is no substitute for experience.

 

[Trixter]

Absolutely true cobaltbabe. As a matter of fact, the document that I am quoting is from a paper about CCR's that Mr. Pyle wrote when he was either in Papua New Guinea, or after said expedition.

There is no substitute for experience. No one can dispute otherwise. For anyone who started off reading my original post. They must have thought, "This guy is off his rocker!!!" Far from it my friends!

=-)

 

[BigJetDriver]

It is, perhaps, a little known fact that courses were run at one time in Japan, starting divers on the Fieno Semi-Closed Rebreather (a sort of distant cousin to the Draeger units) and taking them from ab initio to Open Water certification. While the company has folded due to financial problems, many students in Japan went that route before such training ceased.

So, can it be done? Obviously, it can! Has it been done? Also, obviously it has! Should it be done? Ah, here, as Shakespeare would have it, lies the rub!

First let me say that I agree with the esteemed Dr. Richard Pyle. The point that he was trying to make, however, was a CAUTIONARY one! What he said then, and still says now, is NOT that diving EXPERIENCE is bad preparation for SCR or CCR diving, but simply that there are many differences between the two TYPES of diving, and that many of the habit patterns of OC diving do NOT translate directly to either SCR or CCR diving. Further, he believes that if one says: "Well, I'm an extremely experienced OC diver, so I can just throw one of these beasts on and go!", one will soon learn that the reality of the situation is something else entirely. Cockiness, and arrogance, leading to disregard of the extra fundamental practices involved in RB diving WILL be rewarded with EXTREME consequences!:wacko:

Is a rebreather a dangerous weapon, or a death trap lying in wait? No more so than a modern, complex airplane! If handled properly, with proper procedure established by proper training, they are both efficient, and in their own way, powerful machines. If mishandled, or negligently used, they can be extremely dangerous. That is just the nature of the beast!

Now, as an Instructor Trainer with a Technical Diving Training Agency, would I recommend that a diver with little or no diving experience and training take up RB diving right away? No way in bloody Hell, as the Brits are wont (Yes, this is the correct usage!) to say!=-)

To paraphrase what Mr. Natural used to say: "Get the right TRAINING for the job, kids!"

 

[fins wake]

You can't honestly tell me that the person who wrote that quote first off would be diving in the conditions that we do, and didn't have a vast amount of knowledge about the entire scope of diving. I still stick by my guns.

I think Trixter has misunderstood what Rich Pyle is saying. BigJetDriver has already made this point. It's a simple one. All experienced OC divers are beginners again when starting on a rebreather, and particularly a CCR.

That doesn't mean they have to throw awayall their previous knowledge. As has been pointed out, there are many skills learned on open-circuit which are just as valid on a rebreather. These are general diving skills. However, diving an RB is different from open-circuit, your general bouyancy, your ascents and descents will for example often be totally different.

The mindset is totally different as well, at least for the successful rebreather diver. Many experienced OC divers - perhaps most - are often in a terrific rush to get wet (at least where I live). Their pre-dive procedures are often cursory and hurried, or even non-existent. Their mindset is: "So what if I forgot to turn on the tank, or fasten my waist-strap. I'll do that below." Now, if you forget to turn on and check the tank on a rebreather, you'll die. You never want to get into the habit of "fixing it under the surface".

Also, many experienced divers seldom check their SPG:s. They know their RMV and are able to dive at a given depth knowing full well that they'll be able to surface after a set time with lots of gas to spare. At certain sites they don't even check their depth gauges too often.

(Please notice that I'm not making the case for diving as above, just noting that many OC divers dive this way.)

Now, as a rebreather diver you will check your gauges constantly, even when everything is working fine. In fact, especially when things are working fine ...

Totally different mindset for a type of diving which is not as forgiving as OC diving. This is what Rich Pyle is arguing. Unlike some well-known Internet personalities I could mention, Pyle has never argued that his type of diving is a "fits-all" and to be emulated by other divers, nor that his experience translates into all waters and all circumstances. Most RB divers are well aware that their type of diving is very different from general OC recreational diving.

There is no substitute for experience.

True, there's no substitute for OC experience, and OC experience is no substitute for RB experience. All experience is good and none is inherently "better" than the other, just more relevant - and in the end essential safetywise - for the type of diving you do.

 

[Trixter]

This thread seems to have taken on a life of it's own.....