On the merits of cranking up standards.

[TMHeimer]

In reply to boulderjohn: I agree. With EVERYTHING you say. This is not surprising being a retired teacher. In fact, to my knowledge in most Canadian provinces there is no requirement for a teacher to get a Masters or do anything to upgrade or "re-certify" other than participate in P.D. days, once on the job. Evaluations (planned) once in a while. Yet, I have HEARD that the Canadian Ed. system beats the U.S. Have NO idea if that's true, as I taught Band, which is a "frill" and not very important.....
Anyway-- Scuba, Band, whatever--you're gunna have good, bad, and mediocre instructors one way or another, no matter what.

 

[KevinNM]

You can fit all the US GUE instructors in a single classroom, and they all know each other. And hold each other to account if they produce unqualified graduates. This isn't comparable to something like PADI.

 

[Skeptic14]

Seems to me like most things, it'll come down to the individual, their effort, personality, goals and expectations. Pretending that everyone to don scuba gear has visions of making history as the next technical diver to push boundaries and expand frontiers just isn't the reality.

How is this different from any other hobby/activity that involves some amount of training? For that matter... how is this different from becoming licensed to operate a 4k lb piece of machinery at 70mph by the age of 16?

Conscientious instructors are great and the more the better, but the reality is your not going to eliminate the equivalent of the snap chatting at 100mph diver from taking up the hobby.

 

[kr2y5]

you're gunna have good, bad, and mediocre instructors one way or another, no matter what.

Well, to John's first observation above, whoever sets the standards, teaches or evaluates the instructors better believe they CAN actually make a difference...

 

[Bob DBF]

I was a career teacher and school administrator. I was a key member of the team that designed the teacher evaluation system and standards still used by one of the largest school districts in America. Throughout the country, there are strict standards for college graduates to become teachers. Once they are hired, they are usually required to go through a probationary period in which they get special training and special oversight. Then they are required to go through frequent formal evaluations by school administrators who are in the building observing them at work. Those evaluators have contact with those teachers nearly every day of the work year. In most states, teachers must go through a recertification process every couple of years. If they don't live up to the standards, they can be fired, so there is pressure on them to do well. This great effort to ensure high teacher quality is extremely expensive and time consuming. Despite all of this, horrible teaching abounds. There are teachers everywhere ignoring standards and getting away with it.

So how can scuba hope to do a better job than that?

Well first they have to try.
Second, no tenure.
And last, a grade school teacher's student doesn't die if they f**k up teaching.


Bob

 

[TMHeimer]

Well, to John's first observation above, whoever sets the standards, teaches or evaluates the instructors better believe they CAN actually make a difference...

Well of course they believe that--they're teachers too. And I'm sure sometimes the teacher's teacher does make a difference. But there are good and bad ones of those too. Either way, we're probably splitting hairs. Fixing an educational system by trying to improve the professors teaching teachers, or by all kinds of testing of student progress (standard testing, etc. which has been tried countless times in countless places) doesn't seem to work. Overhauling an entire (scuba?) system/agency might work. As far as evaluating scuba instructors regularly--as John says, who pays for that when apparently the industry as a whole isn't doing so well?

 

[BRT]

You can get a license to dive for $300 in 3 days or for $1000 in 4 weeks. Not hard to figure out which shop will sell the most high margin equipment. The vast majority of people want what they see as the "license". A buddy I dive with had the 3 days and got the cert. If it would have taken 5 days he wouldn't have done it. He has been learning ever since. I took the course over several weeks. I've been learning ever since too.

 

[scubadada]

Old school vs. current times, PADI vs. NAUI, we've been through this many times on SB

I was certified in 1970 by the LA County Underwater Unit. It was a good course, I was a reasonably competent diver, mostly shore diving in Southern California. Jump ahead, I didn't dive from 1980-1997. I was recertified by PADI in 1997 with my 12 year old son. It was a good course, different than my LACUU course, but good. We had two great instructors. My son became a competent diver. My wife and 12 year old daughter were certified by PADI in 2002, That was a good course too, they had an excellent instructor. Both my wife and daughter are competent divers. I just dived with my son and daughter earlier this month in Boynton Beach. Looking forward to the next dive with my wife, soon after we return to the US from living in Switzerland.

I have nearly 1200 dives since 1997, my son has about 300. My wife has 160 dives since 2002, my daughter has 60. For us, this all worked out just fine, hope it does for you too, whatever agency you choose

 

[admikar]

You can get a license to dive for $300 in 3 days or for $1000 in 4 weeks. Not hard to figure out which shop will sell the most high margin equipment. The vast majority of people want what they see as the "license". A buddy I dive with had the 3 days and got the cert. If it would have taken 5 days he wouldn't have done it. He has been learning ever since. I took the course over several weeks. I've been learning ever since too.

All of you are focused on one side of equation-instructors, except @BRT . But every equation have two sides, second being students. There are some people getting into diving for bragging purposes, card collection etc. and there are people that love diving and strive to be the best they can be at anything they do. Therefore we have people enrolling in PADI or NAUI,BSAC,CMAS,GUE. Point is, you can raise standards, but if people are not interested they will walk away to find lesser restriction course for what they want.
Why is it that GUE or BSAC produce "better" divers? Instructors? Probably, but definitely not the only reason. People that come to these agencies have a certain mindset, and they are actively working at getting better,well, most of them.
When I researched my options,PADI was easiest. Finish OW, do 5 more training dives and you're AOW. Cool, but I am not in this for being cool. I also love to be alive ( not that I am saying every PADI AOW will die while diving).
Second option for me was CMAS. 20 dives to get AOW. Still not great, but better.
And then there comes student/diver mindset. I finished my OW, with some holes in my training, but I knew that and worked every dive to correct my technique ( by asking more experienced divers about my trim, buoyancy, breathing , watching tons of videos on YT and spending hours and hours here on SB sifting through information). A friend of mine, with even bigger holes, simply do not care. He got his card and see no room for improvement. Even worse, a girl in my class, which was way better than me, now dives like she never saw scuba gear. She does not care,squared!
Instructors are not perfect, but neither are students, so it is unfair to put all the blame on one side only.

 

[CapNemo]

Quality control
It makes no difference how many standards are in place if no one ever checks to see if they are followed, except perhaps after there is an incident, but after the fact it may be hard to determine.

Make it harder to become a Dive professional, and easier to revoke their credential. There are plenty of DM's and instructors already. A combination of scheduled and undercover checks on instructors during training sessions would go a long way to improve instruction, when their credential is in the balance.

Although I am a proponent of better dive training, it makes little sense to increase standards on their training when there is no way to determine if the instructor is training to the agency standard now.
Bob

I completely agree. There is not point in extra standards or stricter standards if instructors nor dive operations follow them in the first place. Only by successfully enforcing the current standards can the dive industry develop safer courses and produce better divers.

Standards are there for a reason. It is the job of dive professionals and the responsibility of certified divers to teach and follow the standards. Role models practices can make a huge difference.