o2diver
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Pete, You forgott that the rules change when needed, I wish they could make up their minds on wether we need to be redundant or not. I don't know what to beleive any more.. I'M SOOOO CONFUSED.
OMS Wing and single Tank
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I'm sorry that you don't understand the difference between a piece of equipment that's required in order to dive versus extra, unnecessary equipment. Well, actually I know you do, because I know darn well with what you do you've got to be far from stupid. I just find it unfortunate that with full knowledge you have stoop to such ridiculous examples in vain attempts to make your point.
My social skills are just fine, Pete. I have no doubt you disagree, so there's no need to reiterate. See, you've made an incorrect assumption that I'm trying to convince you of the error of your ways. I'm not. I currently [note the wiggle room] consider you a lost cause. All I'm doing is pointing out for the readers that have been steered towards OMS and Zeagles how poorly thought through some of their gear is. You've become so emotional over the issue (against DIR) that you've occupied a completely indefensible position; one based on emotion rather than logic. From that position you've admitted to the power-leak problem with bungee wings, little or no testing of your back up bladder and now this "spreader" contraption to name a few. I just point out how totally unnecessary (at best) some of your equipment is as you bring it up. Heck, I don't know for sure, but I'd be surprised if I've ever actually brought up something myself in your kit I didn't like, I just shine a harsh light on it when YOU bring it up. Thank you.
Actually you've gotten extremely close to a very key point here on your own, so Id like to run with it.
We find the redundancy we need in the equipment we *have* to carry. You *add* equipment to get redundancy. Stop, take a deep breath and think about this and you just might understand where we're coming from.
Roak
Ps. I feel for your students-to-be. From your position of authority it'll take one heck of an open mind for someone to become DIR after you teach them.
Oh look, a cheering section that doesn't understand either. How quaint.
I've addressed your confusion in my previous reply. If you need further details, just ask.
Roak
Halcyon has done away with the need for a STA. Their plates (as well as Fred-T's) and their wings have the tank band slits in them. Why use them if they have been eliminated? Or did you want to maximise the use of the gear you now own? Me too.
BTW, for those keeping score... I am up to:
Convoluted, Complex, a liar, ludicrous, AND a Lost Cause... I like the last one the best. Just waiting to be labled a stroke! That would really make my day.
Now that's a conundrum... why would one have to be open minded in order to become narrow minded? I had an open mind about DIR last year... but then I saw the whack-a-stroke mentality and I want none of it! You seem to take pride in pissing people off, and thats just sad. You have no problem shining that "harsh light" on everyone else's perceived faults, but you surely don't like it when it is focused on you. The Advocates cry; "Don't call us a religion" and other such nonsense. You know, when everyone is telling that something YOU think is green is actually red, just maybe you should take a closer look... you might be color blind. But when you do you refer to rule #2 and then all of us have to start calling it green too if we want to "Do It Right".
Actually, you are wrong in your assumption of what you think I assumed. You have never talked to me as one trying to enlighten a wayward individual... it has always been harrassment. It will probably always be harrassment. You can call this an assumption, but I am convinced that you derive great satisfaction out of harrassing me as well as others. It is the hallmark of your discipline. It is paramount to Rule #2. You have emulated GI3 well; you should be proud of your accomplishment.
BTW, when you guys are by yourselves do you practice OOS drills??? (Out Of Strokes) Maybe start deriding each other to keep your practice up? I'm not sure how you do it, but you keep this skill honed razor sharp!
BTW, for those keeping score... I am up to:
Convoluted, Complex, a liar, ludicrous, AND a Lost Cause... I like the last one the best. Just waiting to be labled a stroke! That would really make my day.
Now that's a conundrum... why would one have to be open minded in order to become narrow minded? I had an open mind about DIR last year... but then I saw the whack-a-stroke mentality and I want none of it! You seem to take pride in pissing people off, and thats just sad. You have no problem shining that "harsh light" on everyone else's perceived faults, but you surely don't like it when it is focused on you. The Advocates cry; "Don't call us a religion" and other such nonsense. You know, when everyone is telling that something YOU think is green is actually red, just maybe you should take a closer look... you might be color blind. But when you do you refer to rule #2 and then all of us have to start calling it green too if we want to "Do It Right".
Actually, you are wrong in your assumption of what you think I assumed. You have never talked to me as one trying to enlighten a wayward individual... it has always been harrassment. It will probably always be harrassment. You can call this an assumption, but I am convinced that you derive great satisfaction out of harrassing me as well as others. It is the hallmark of your discipline. It is paramount to Rule #2. You have emulated GI3 well; you should be proud of your accomplishment.
BTW, when you guys are by yourselves do you practice OOS drills??? (Out Of Strokes) Maybe start deriding each other to keep your practice up? I'm not sure how you do it, but you keep this skill honed razor sharp!
Bullseye! I love it when they take rise to the bait!
Yooper, Pug, others and myself. We all changed from mainstream gear we were trained on (eBay to the rescue!) to something completely different. That's open minded. All DIR folks arrive borne on an open mind, it's the only way to leave that monetary and training investment behind.
That's why I always find it so ironic that people who don't want to give up their jacket BCs or bungee wings call folks who have given up just about everything "closed minded." Wow, talk about 180 degrees off the mark.
And you wonder why I called you [currently] a lost cause. It now doesn't matter if DIR has a better idea, you'll reject it at a purely emotional level. Now THAT'S a closed mind. Your loss. This is exactly what I referring to about digging into an indefensible position.
You're a smart guy, you'll figure out DIR on your own someday.
Funny, I was talking about shining the light on flawed configurations, somehow you've made a jump to people ("everyone else" and "you").
Tell me when you want to start discussing gear or philosophy again since that's my interest here, not you.
Roak
I have heard of Pete's spreader bar before. I thought it was a great idea.
It's simple and it works (sound familiar???? isn't that what DIR is all about?)
Halcyon would never market a spreader bar. it would be bad for business to eliminate a wing that cost hundreds in favor of a spreader bar at probably less than $30
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Originally posted by NetDoc
I use a "spreader plate" to hold my wing in place when I dive sans doubles.
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Roak,
I usually respect your opinion. This time it looks like you just wanted someone to beat on!
It's simple and it works (sound familiar???? isn't that what DIR is all about?)
Halcyon would never market a spreader bar. it would be bad for business to eliminate a wing that cost hundreds in favor of a spreader bar at probably less than $30
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Originally posted by NetDoc
I use a "spreader plate" to hold my wing in place when I dive sans doubles.
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Roak,
I usually respect your opinion. This time it looks like you just wanted someone to beat on!
"Tell me when you want to start discussing gear or philosophy again since that's my interest here, not you."
Roak
Funny, everytime anyone starts to talk anything real all they get are insults, putdowns, and dismissals.
Let me see;
The DIR answer to faulty hand signals in the face of a better option is "wetnotes."
Instead of a simple spreader plate, the answer to diving a single tank is to buy a whole new wing.
Couldn't possible use the same wing for both doubles and singles.
What is so terrible about a double bladder BC for a diver in a wetsuit? That is redundant bouyancy. The dry suit diver has just as much complexity and as many failure points. One is safe and the other is an instant deathtrap?
Oh well.
DIR ... A great system being killed by its advocates. :upset:
Roak
Funny, everytime anyone starts to talk anything real all they get are insults, putdowns, and dismissals.
Let me see;
The DIR answer to faulty hand signals in the face of a better option is "wetnotes."
Instead of a simple spreader plate, the answer to diving a single tank is to buy a whole new wing.
Couldn't possible use the same wing for both doubles and singles.
What is so terrible about a double bladder BC for a diver in a wetsuit? That is redundant bouyancy. The dry suit diver has just as much complexity and as many failure points. One is safe and the other is an instant deathtrap?
Oh well.
DIR ... A great system being killed by its advocates. :upset:
Against my better judgement I'll reply.
Please gentle readers, go back and find my post that reads:
Then read NetDoc's reply and ask yourself, "Just who lowered this argument to a personal level?" It's all right there if you go back and read it.
Over and over again, the pattern is the same:
1) DIR diver says [for example] that something is not necessary.
2) The anti-DIR folks get their knickers in a bunch and froth and foam about us being a "cult" or "brainwashed" or whatever the insult d'jour is but never really do address why they think some gadget is necessary.
3) Given no logical response to our difference in opinion of equipment, we point out how unreasonable/illogical/emotional the anti-DIR folks are being.
4) The anti-DIR folks then go whining off to mommy about how mean we're being.
I said "More complexity. When will it ever stop?" and the reply came back that I was "slamming" things. That I was "belittleing" things. Note that Pete's reply lacked any cogent argument FOR a spreader, it was an attack that functioned at a totally personal level.
pipedope, clean up your own house before you start accusing me of insults, putdowns and dismissals.
Pete is way too gone emotionally over his untenable position to launch anything BUT emotional, personal attacks. And the more he digs in, the harder it's going to be for him to EVER admit he's wrong. And his students will pay for his ego (something he accuses ME of! How can I have an ego when a number of years ago I said to myself "I'm an idiot, there's a much better way to dive than the way I do now!")
The problem is not the DIR divers, it's the constant needling by the anti-DIR crowd. When we finally get fed up and respond in kind, suddenly the instigators cry "Foul!"
If it werent so damaging to getting the word out about a safer, more enjoyable way to dive it'd be funny. But the anti-DIR folks are capable of inordinate amounts of damage, and many of you propagate it every chance you get.
Exactly, you get the right equipment to do the job correctly.
Thank you.
Roak
Roakey must be right... I had no reason to be offended by this or the past attacks on me or the spreader... especially in light of Rule#2! Why should I be offended by a dismissal of something I helped build and am proud of, especially by someone I know has never seen it or tried it. I defer to his obvious more open mind. Of course, I have presented no arguments for it, since it is so stinking simple, and it gets the job done. Wait a minute... didn't I say
Someone must have slipped that in there while we weren't looking.
For the record, DIR Advocates (can't use the word "apostle", 'cause they get offended), NEVER EVER would participate in whack-a-stroke. They are kind and gentle, and their leader, GI3 is a saint. Those of you who have pointed out any other traits, saying things like
are simply in error. They never ever attack others! Thats just a myth spread by most every other diver on the planet. There is no basis in truth, though there are many who have pointed out the exact same thing. Heck, when asked what I didn't like about DIR, I had the temerity to actually reply... boy did that cost me! I ended up deleting my posts to keep from offending DIR people.
The problem Roak... is that your DIR philosophy encompases the "Whack-A-Stroke" mentality that merely claims to be openminded when in fact it is the exact opposite. We find it hard to discuss DIR philosophy without bringing this into the discussion. It's like trying to discuss the crusades without referencing their barbarism... "We killed them, but it was for their own good!" Most reading your initial post would agree that it was completely condescending... But just like you laid your "bait" a few posts up, you did it there as well, and then you act innocent? You do remember saying...
??? Talk about a smoking gun... you are just gloating over this whole thing... and happy as a pig in slop that you finally got to me.
No you are not at fault here... I was, for being bothered by what you thought of me. You are mean spirited and can not see it, and that is NOT my fault. Please, if I am a lost cause to you then leave me the HELL alone. You guys have driven away at least two people that I know of... I ain't leaving!
BTW, did you ever answer the original post, or were you just content to decry what you have not tried? Ah, I see... never be constructive when you can be destructive. Is that Rule #3??? Maybe you can list all of your little rules so we can be sure to avoid them.
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