OMS why all the flames?

[Don Burke]

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled... How is it that you can convolute things so much.....I stated that a pony is for one purpose: To cover the unanticipated loss of your single tank's gas (blown disc, lp hose, Oring, etc.)...and now you turn it into:

"Getting into deco unprepared and believing a pony bottle is going to provide resonable bailout is... beyond nieve - its a death sentence."

Both are a bit of a reach. Most people I know using pony bottles are essentially diving independent mismatched doubles. While there are some who rarely use the pony(which is the proper way), they are the exception. That leads me to believe they create bad habits.

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled... You could just as easily say:

Getting into deco unprepared and believing doubles are going to provide resonable bailout is... beyond nieve - its a death sentence.

It's eqally true, and equally irrelevant.....gas management and dedicated emergency bailout are Seperate Things...

That would be only in the case of independent doubles. I don't think you'll find too many advocates of them here.

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled... You're blaming and condemning a piece of usefull gear for a diver's Lack Of Training, Knowledge, and proper mental attitude !!!....

There are several pieces of gear that seem to produce bad habits. The pony is one that I question the usefulness of since it seems to create problems so often.

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled... You wouldn't blame the BC if some clown buys a 70# wing to use like a lift bag to get stuff up off the bottom....

I'd certainly blame the people who advocated the use of a big wing in that way.

The same people who make the big wings make liftbags. Go figure.

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled... I didn't mean anything personal towards anyone, it's just a lot more convincing when you make your case with logical arguement than irrelevant emotional appeal.

A little more logic and a lot less adrenaline would be a very good thing around here.

 

[padiscubapro]

Boogie711 once bubbled...
And I don't want this to get personal.

Here's my thinking... carrying extra gas is a crutch. You or I might be OK with it, but I've seen too many roto-tillers chewing up a lake bottom to know that some people would eventually just treat a pony not as a redundant air supply, but as an additional air supply.

If you dive singles, I would advocate an H valve, which is a heck of a lot lighter, more streamlined and considerably cheaper than an entire pony bottle setup.

My further 'redundancy' is in my buddy's mouth. No matter what the circumstances, it would be an awfully unique situation for me to consider solo diving. That one I'm pretty adamant about - a pony bottle won't cut you out of a fishing line, calm you down if you freak out about a snake or any one of a myriad of things that a good buddy does. (I hate snakes, can you tell? ) Those who consider a pony bottle as a 'buddy in a bottle' are fooling themselves.

But again, that's just me.

Too narrow minded..

A pony bottle, like scuba vixen said is to cover unexpected gas loss not to extend a dive.. Sh*t happens and your buddy wount always be there.. maybe if you always dive in clear water, or a cave where its difficult to get seperated you can always find your buddy.. I dive and teach in the NE us.. 10ft viz is considered a good day, 5ft is pretty common.. its harder to keep with your buddy than get seperated.. to give you an Idea how easy.. you glance down and see a lobster pause to investigate, your buddy was looking ahead, he turns back you are gone.... in limited viz only swimming a few feet will sperate you.. You aren't going to use a "buddy" line because of entanglement hazards..

Now you have to search for your buddy and depending what you agreed on before hand to either return to the descent point or continue your dive.. MOST divers up here continue the dive because they know they will eventually run into their buddy again.. even if they don't they are still effectively solo diving whether they like it or not. Having a pony is your backup gas.. Many of the boats up here will NOT allow you to dive without a pony bottle or a set of doubles..
There are even a few boats that wount let you dive without first seeing your logbook regardless of certification level.. if you don't have local experience (or similiar conditions) you'll have to dive with someone who has..

Most divers don't use it to extend their dive (at least up here in the ne) they know its for emergencies.. if its common where you dive they need better training..

Carrying "an extra inflator hose" if stowed correctly doesn't present any additional entanglement hazards or risks.. You don't need an extra LP inflator hose you can use the original one, if you use a second bladder with a drysuit you also have that hose as well.. certain wings like halycon dont work well(another reason for halycon supporters to bash redundant bladders) if you try and double them up their connection is in the absolute worse position for this (plus that material over the elbow prevents repositioning)... most other bladders allow it to be done easily.. whether 2 seperate bladders or 1 double bladder..


I can take this even one step further, some places you must use all steel tanks.. aluminum tanks are not an option either "a" they aren't easily available or "b" they are illegal.. yes there ARE counties that it is illegal to use al cylinders for diving..


Now your drysuit is definately incapable of being a backup device wityhout being dangerous..

 

[sasdasdaf]

Or you can just focus on developing excellent buddy skills, such that it would take a major incident to separate you from your buddy. In bad viz and difficult conditions, situational awareness and keeping in close contact with your buddy are even more important.

You should not lose your buddy because of distractions. If you do, then you've made a bad choice in picking your buddy.

Just because a boat has a certain policy doesn't make them right.

 

[padiscubapro]

sasdasdaf once bubbled...
Or you can just focus on developing excellent buddy skills, such that it would take a major incident to separate you from your buddy. In bad viz and difficult conditions, situational awareness and keeping in close contact with your buddy are even more important.

You should not lose your buddy because of distractions. If you do, then you've made a bad choice in picking your buddy.

Just because a boat has a certain policy doesn't make them right.

2 people just cruising the wreck its difficult but not overly impossible, but if you dive locally you know most divers local to the ny area are either avid lobster hunters, spear fisherman or artifact hunters.. it only takes a few seconds to get seperated.. if you have your eyes glued to each other you aren't seeing anything. it obvious the more experienced the diver is the more likely they can stay together.. the problem is that most experienced divers have an agenda and it usually doesn't involve babysitting a new diver.. If you are teaching and getting paid to babysit thats one thing, if you are paying good money (and out boats aren't cheap) you want to enjoy the dive..

The biggest danger is the new diver, a second gas source can't hurt..

 

[oharag]

right armpit, and into my mouth. Not much hanging out. I suppose similar to a DIRer except he wraps it around his neck once (and I suppose clips it off on his right hip).

So DIR is mostly for caves, where I agree with the long hose and the ability to swim in front of one another.

The question about high capacity wings is one I had posed. Like I said before so much BS and marketing hype it's hard for a newbie to separate truth from reality. I still think dual bladders are a DIR mandate!

oharag

 

[sasdasdaf]

oharag,

You might view the benefits of the 7ft hose different if you actually see it in action. It is remarkably easy to deploy and stow and will make a difference when the time comes.

The 7ft is useful not only in a cave, but in open water as well. It is much more comfortable to share gas when you aren't in danger of having a reg ripped out of your mouth because the hose is too short. Not to mention you don't have to be pressed up against the donor.

padiscubapro,

I understand the desire to enjoy one's dives, but I think that shouldn't be at the expense of keeping good buddy skills. It's not necessary to constantly have your eyes on your buddy if you communicate via light signals. In any case, you really shouldn't be more than a few feet away from your buddy. I recently did a dive with 2 buddies in 3ft vis and we stayed as a team the entire time.

 

[Dryglove]

sasdasdaf once bubbled...
oharag,

You might view the benefits of the 7ft hose different if you actually see it in action. It is remarkably easy to deploy and stow and will make a difference when the time comes.

The 7ft is useful not only in a cave, but in open water as well. It is much more comfortable to share gas when you aren't in danger of having a reg ripped out of your mouth because the hose is too short. Not to mention you don't have to be pressed up against the donor.

Watch the video and see for yourself the advantages

http://www.fifthd.com/classinfo/video/ooaascent.htm

http://www.fifthd.com/classinfo/video/ooa.htm

 

[oharag]

I'm newly certified. You hear all these things you're supposed to do during a dive. Ie. Wear your snorkel (after OW throw it away), and stay with your buddy. Well, my brother says when he goes down to a wreck everyone scatters. I think that this is prevalent in most cases (unless of course you are caving, best to stay close to your life support). I went on a wreck dive recently. Even though I was diving with my teacher and buddy there were many times where we were going single file. I was in the back. If something fell on me, or I got entangled no one would know. Sure they would notice I was gone in a period of time, but where did I go? Fortunately, there was a ton of other divers down on this wreck. My buddy could have been any one of them (that's the beauty of scuba). But, what would happen if I requested air, and the person offering only had so much air to give? I dove in NJ where pony bottles are the law. The boat I went on allowed H-Valves. Still I wouldn't know how to manipulate the H valve to save my life. Taking a Pony Bottle would have been much safer.

oharag

PS Why did a discussion about OMS wings turn into a discussion about doing it right? Supposedly DIRers hate OMS wings (hence BWOD). This was news to me. I kind of like the bungeed wings. In fact I would have thought they would have been adopted by DIRers. Small, compact, out of the way, double bladders.

 

[ERP]

I went on a wreck dive recently. Even though I was diving with my teacher and buddy there were many times where we were going single file. I was in the back. If something fell on me, or I got entangled no one would know. Sure they would notice I was gone in a period of time, but where did I go?

If you and your buddy were DIR divers you would use your lights to establish passive communication. When something went wrong your buddy in front would know to look back for you immediatly.

DIR is far more than just equipment. Buddy and Situational awareness are all part of the package.

When I finished reading about DIR here I had the opinion it had some good ideas, but some of them seemed excessive or extreme. Once I started diving with DIR buddies and started to ask questions it became apparent that the system isn't a collection of ideas. It's a collection of ideas designed to work in context with each other.

IMO you cannot get a grasp on what DIR is or isn't by listening to people who don't dive DIR. If your really interested do a DIRF, evene if you decide that DIR isn't for you, you'll learn a lot, it's an exceptional course.

 

[oharag]

I've read the DIR stuff (maybe not in full). Many good ideas. In fact probably no different from my PADI classes. But, don't you think DIRers lay it on a little thick? It's like Harley motorcycle riders. Anything else is crude!

I think we should stop clasifying "a right way" and a "wrong way" to dive. We should all be considerate of how we dive using safe equipment and procedures, rather than what kind of equipment we dive how we attach it to our bodies? And I guess DIRers do differ somewhat with their methods of buddy breathing (hence the long hose). The method of communicating using the lights was taught by my PADI instructor on my night dive. Excellent way to communicate. I tried that during my wreck dive when my instrcutor was trying to look for me (I was above him). Unfortunately, I have a weak light. He couldn't even see it. Got to get me one of those HID's!!!!!!!!!!! Buuuuyahhhhhh!

oharag