Offshore drilling bill passes house - CONTACT YOUR SENATORS!

[Cacia]

Also the fact that if we are going to have to depend on oil for the foreseeable future, I would rather have it be our oil I buy, our governments environmental controls, and within view of ecologically concerned people such as yourself in order to call the developers to task should the need arise.

I think this is one of the strongest aruments FOR, in the global sense, assuming that it has to happen. Putting them "outta site" off third world shores has to be worse. Look what Mexico is doing with sewage.

Me, I am for pricing populations into reality. For example, if I ever move back to LA, I think I would skip the whole commute and live near Venice or Santa Monica. The time, effort, cost, impact has just gone past the tipping point.

thanks, Jerry. You mean, Bill doesn't tell the WHOLE story? yea, I see what you mean. Limiting consumption is the only answer until we find a viable alternative.

Hydrogen gets a lot of buzz, doesn't it?

 

[ScubaBabe22]

I'm afraid you're a bit off on that ... gas prices in Europe have more to do with taxes. Governments over there have been open for years to the fact that their tax structure is designed specifically to reduce consumption.

Gasoline taxes in the United Stated (according to EIA statistics) average about $0.42 per gallon, nationwide. Of that, about $0.19 per gallon is federal tax, the rest varies from state to state. On average, Americans pay about 17% of the cost of their gasoline in taxes.

Europeans have it much worse ... although the cost of a gallon of gasoline (not including taxes) over there is approximately the same as it is here, their taxes can go anywhere from 40% to over 150%. In the Netherlands, a gallon of gasoline averages $6.73 ... of which $4.12 is tax. In France, a gallon of gasoline averages $5.80 ... of which $3.65 is tax. The average price for a gallon of gasoline (minus taxes) in Europe is approximately equal to what it is in America ... around $2.60 per gallon. And yet after taxes, most Europeans are paying more than $6.00 per gallon.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yeah, but the taxes are so high so they can be less capitalistic, more socialist (I don't mean anything bad by those terms). I rememeber buying shampoo in Britain, with 18% tax. I had a hissy fit.

 

[MEL-DC Diver]

yes, and it appears I'm not alone here.

Truth be told, I live in Arlington (hey, it's still inside the Beltway). I just have to have my representation.

 

[dlndavid]

Hi Carl

 

[lamont]

A rig 25 miles at sea is invisible from the shore.

until you get an oil spill...

we don't need to drill more. it isn't going to materially affect the oil supply. at best if we can come up with 1 Mbd of daily pumping capacity we can put off peak oil by a year or two, and it isn't going to affect how much money is going to states like Saudi Arabia or Iran. trying to turn this into "environmentally sound policy" is laughable.

if you want to solve those problems, leave the oil in the ground and restructure the economy so we don't need oil. period.

and remember it doesn't matter how much oil is down there, it matters how fast you can get it out. the ghawar oil field is amazing because of how cheaply they can pump massive amounts of oil out of it. there may be a lot of oil under the gulf, but we can't get to it fast enough to make any really difference.

 

[ScubaBabe22]

until you get an oil spill...

we don't need to drill more. it isn't going to materially affect the oil supply. at best if we can come up with 1 Mbd of daily pumping capacity we can put off peak oil by a year or two, and it isn't going to affect how much money is going to states like Saudi Arabia or Iran. trying to turn this into "environmentally sound policy" is laughable.

if you want to solve those problems, leave the oil in the ground and restructure the economy so we don't need oil. period.

and remember it doesn't matter how much oil is down there, it matters how fast you can get it out. the ghawar oil field is amazing because of how cheaply they can pump massive amounts of oil out of it. there may be a lot of oil under the gulf, but we can't get to it fast enough to make any really difference.

Isn't part of the problem the number of refineries we do or don't have? I mean, honestly, this comment might get me in trouble, but hold off cause I'm going to get coffee... Katrina and the refineries could have been soooo much worse; the oil companies did a lot to prevent even more damage.

 

[bruehlt]

I'm glad to see that this thread is getting some play. To those of you that are acting as "adults" about this - I give you props. Too often there are a few that seem to believe they have a necessity to start flaming and destroying an otherwise legitimate thread.

Now, some more background here. For those of you that like to point fingers - I drive a Honda Civic.

Secondly - I moved to Florida 5 years ago. I used to travel extensively for work, which included a brief 1 year stint in Houston.

For those of you that don't know, Houston is one of the most polluted cities in the United States. Why? Due to all of the oil refineries and chemical plants that dot the gulf coast.

Spillage, seepage, as well as all sorts of other garbage and pollution are a FACT of life for the folks that live on the coast of Texas in that uber-industrialized area. The company I work for has an office on the Houston ship channel - which empties into Galviston Bay (for those too ignorant to know).

Also - for those who have had the opportunity to actually SWIM in Galviston bay - I give you major props. When the tide goes out, the smell of petrol and sewage is horrible.

I have also taken a dive trip to the Flower Gardens (which is beautiful, even though it has the largest rig in the gulf next to it), as well as a gas platform off of Freeport - on a trip by Al Mannica. All I can say is that I will never do that again. The depth was around 50 feet. Due to the pollution in the water, you could not see below 30 feet. Even if you WANTED to dive deeper than 30 feet, you were advised not to due to all of the trash and garbage at the bottom due to the rig.

Yes, there were some fish, as well as a SMALL artifcial reef created due to this - but the environmental impacts of oil and gas seeping from the rigs, as well as the trash, debris, and OTHER impacts that affect the gulf coast (such as increased water traffic), I cannot understand why anyone that calls themself a sport diver can agree with this?

Don't believe me? Read the following articles:

http://oils.gpa.unep.org/facts/extraction.htm
http://www.sptimes.com/News/081201/State/Is_this_in_Florida_s_.shtml

I could go on. Pollution from oil and gas rigs is a fact. A fact that almost all floridians don't want in their back yard.

 

[jbichsel]

I think this is one of the strongest aruments FOR, in the global sense, assuming that it has to happen. Putting them "outta site" off third world shores has to be worse. Look what Mexico is doing with sewage.

Me, I am for pricing populations into reality. For example, if I ever move back to LA, I think I would skip the whole commute and live near Venice or Santa Monica. The time, effort, cost, impact has just gone past the tipping point.

thanks, Jerry. You mean, Bill doesn't tell the WHOLE story? yea, I see what you mean. Limiting consumption is the only answer until we find a viable alternative.

Hydrogen gets a lot of buzz, doesn't it?

Hydrogen - Love it. But right now it needs a lot of work. I believe that even the oil companies are working on it. Why not? Hydrogen is the most common element in the known universe. Do you think that us paying the arabs $70+/barrel when it costs them $4/barrel is going to incentivise them to develope alternatives?

How do you suppose those sheiks can afford to have Boeing 747's as personal planes? I used to do contract work for a guy that owns a machine shop in Texas. In the 80's he got a contract machining different 'give away' gifts for a member of the Saudi royal family. This sheik gave these things, ash trays, clocks, goblets, paperweights, to people that flew on his private 747. All these things were machined from solid gold. The machine shop got to keep the scrap. You should see his operation and house now!

I'm all for some different form of energy: hydrogen, cold fusion, solar, wind, surf, and/or combinations. However, I'm not for taking radical steps that can and will adversely affect our economy.

Why not develope our own resources, become energy independant and maybe even sell some excess to our "friends" like China? Use the self reliance and cheaper oil we produce to develope new, alternative forms of energy while we reduce our outlay, maintain control and maybe even make some $$$ from it all?

Besides, if a rig is 25 miles off the coast, you won't see it from the beach. Due to the curvature of the earth, the horizon is only about 11 miles at se level.

I say drill away boys!

[Poltical content edited by Moderator - Rick Inman]

 

[lamont]

Isn't part of the problem the number of refineries we do or don't have? I mean, honestly, this comment might get me in trouble, but hold off cause I'm going to get coffee... Katrina and the refineries could have been soooo much worse; the oil companies did a lot to prevent even more damage.

refinery capacity is also a problem, but you have to get the crude out of the ground first.

we're up to something like 80 Mbd of demand and are nearly maxed out at pumping capacity. things like drilling in ANWR would only produce 1 Mbd at peak pumping capacity in ANWR (which would take years to get there) and we've been growing at around 1 Mbd/yr of demand as China and India come online and increase demand on global crude supplies.

we're not going to run out of oil under the Earth, but its going to get harder and slower and more expensive to pull it out. and once the rate that we can pump it out maxes out and the demand exceeds that, then the price will spike. of course spiking oil prices means that other oil fields become economical to operate and that creates more reserves -- again we're not going to run out of oil -- but we're not going to get the expensive oil fields online fast enough with a pumping capacity to offset oil fields like ghawar dropping their production.

 

[TCDiver1]

I'm afraid you're a bit off on that ... gas prices in Europe have more to do with taxes. Governments over there have been open for years to the fact that their tax structure is designed specifically to reduce consumption.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Maybe indirectly but i thought the biggest reason for the higher taxes in many of those countries was to pay for more extensive social programs. Universal health care, etc. :huh: