NTSB opens public docket on Conception fire

[markmud]

And the other which would be dragging anchor and running aground. The SoCal boats anchor very close to shore for shelter and would not have a lot of time to make correcti

Hi Bob DBF,

To iterate and buttress your point, the Nav Rules state in Rule 5:
"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and risk of collision."

There is no exclusion for anchored vessels.

Rule 30: Anchored Vessels and Vessels Aground.
Anchored vessels are required to maintain anchor lights and in some cases deck illumination.

Rule 35: Sound and Light Signals

Anchored vessels are required to use prescribed sound signals when restricted visibility rolls in.

A vessel at anchor is not a "moored" vessel.

An anchor watch is required. Could an anchor watch by sight and hearing have sounded general quarters and evacuated the lower deck? Probably. If the anchor watch was combined with the COI required roving fire watch, almost a 100% possibility.

Rule 4: Application:
"Rules in this section apply to any condition of visibility."

cheers,
m

 

[rjack321]

An anchor watch is required. Could an anchor watch by sight and hearing have sounded general quarters and evacuated the lower deck? Probably. If the anchor watch was combined with the COI required roving fire watch, almost a 100% possibility.

Based on the fact that the COI was conditioned on having a roving watch whenever a passenger was below decks its pretty obvious that the CG wanted at least 1 crewperson awake whenever passengers were asleep.

2 passengers asleep and 5 crew? One of those crew was required to be on watch
0 passengers and 5 crew? (like during a transit and before passengers boarded) That's the only scenario when all crew could sleep at once

The roving watch was an all purpose watch, anchor, fire, emergency etc. For a T boat of this size that isnt unreasonable

 

[markmud]

Based on the fact that the COI was conditioned on having a roving watch whenever a passenger was below decks its pretty obvious that the CG wanted at least 1 crewperson awake whenever passengers were asleep.

2 passengers asleep and 5 crew? One of those crew was required to be on watch
0 passengers and 5 crew? (like during a transit and before passengers boarded) That's the only scenario when all crew could sleep at once

The roving watch was an all purpose watch, anchor, fire, emergency etc. For a T boat of this size that isnt unreasonable

I disagree with nothing you wrote. Rather obvious, I think. Although, I think you did a typo or lost your train of thought with this: "...like during a transit..all crew could sleep." A little confusing for me.

cheers,
m

 

[DandyDon]

Having a "roving watchman" whenever a passenger was below decks was a requirement of their COI and every other COI for California liveaboards.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I know very little about maritime matters. What does COI stand for in this discussion? Certificate Of Insurance perhaps?

 

[KevinNM]

Please excuse my ignorance, but I know very little about maritime matters. What does COI stand for in this discussion? Certificate Of Insurance perhaps?

Certificate of Inspection, the formal USCG permit to operate as a vessel in commerce.
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/64000-64499/64213/638774.pdf

 

[wnissen]

Please excuse my ignorance, but I know very little about maritime matters. What does COI stand for in this discussion? Certificate Of Insurance perhaps?

Yep, "Vessels carrying more than six passengers must show a Certificate of Inspection; this indicates the crews of such vessels have undergone drug testing, that the vessel's firefighting and lifesaving equipment is adequate and in good condition, and machinery, hull construction, wiring, stability, safety railings, and navigation equipment meet Federal standards.[1]"

 

[rjack321]

COI = certificate of inspection, basically the terms under which the vessel is legally allowed to operate.

I disagree with nothing you wrote. Rather obvious, I think. Although, I think you did a typo or lost your train of thought with this: "...like during a transit..all crew could sleep." A little confusing for me.

cheers,
m

I meant if the Conception didnt having paying passengers aboard - that was the only situation where all the crew could be asleep at the same time. Even if tied to a dock, as soon as they had paying passengers below decks they had to have at least one crewperson awake and monitoring the vessel 24/7. That's probably why the CG used the term roving watchman instead of a more specific term like anchor watch. Because they didnt want anyone arguing or confused "but wait we were at the dock not at anchor"? Ditto "night watchman" leads to statements about how an accident legally happened after sunrise... etc etc.

Roving watchman was a deliberate choice of words.

Sometimes vessels are shuttled from one port to another without any paying passengers aboard. For drydocking or to serve a one-way trip etc. Or if only crew were aboard for a few hours before passengers boarded in the morning and they all took a nap. If they ever did that then all the crew could be asleep at once. That'd be the only situation where they were all allowed to sleep

 

[cerich]

Based on the fact that the COI was conditioned on having a roving watch whenever a passenger was below decks its pretty obvious that the CG wanted at least 1 crewperson awake whenever passengers were asleep.

2 passengers asleep and 5 crew? One of those crew was required to be on watch
0 passengers and 5 crew? (like during a transit and before passengers boarded) That's the only scenario when all crew could sleep at once

The roving watch was an all purpose watch, anchor, fire, emergency etc. For a T boat of this size that isnt unreasonable

Not quite.

Conceptiosn COI states "A MEMBER OF THE VESSEL'S CREW SHALL BE DESIGNATED BY THE MASTER AS A ROVING PATROL AT ALL TIMES, WHETHER OR NOT THE VESSEL IS UNDERWAY, WHEN THE PASSENGER'S BUNKS ARE OCCUPIED."

If any crew is sleeping in a passenger's bunk, a roving patrol was required. Not well defined really but I suspect the intention was any bunks below the main cabin on deck 1

 

[rjack321]

Not quite.

Conceptiosn COI states "A MEMBER OF THE VESSEL'S CREW SHALL BE DESIGNATED BY THE MASTER AS A ROVING PATROL AT ALL TIMES, WHETHER OR NOT THE VESSEL IS UNDERWAY, WHEN THE PASSENGER'S BUNKS ARE OCCUPIED."

If any crew is sleeping in a passenger's bunk, a roving patrol was required. Not well defined really but I suspect the intention was any bunks below the main cabin on deck 1

That's true
I think passenger bunk = below deck bunk. But because they used the word passenger, yet one of the crew routinely slept below decks its a bit hard to know if a mere crew person sleeping below the main deck would or wouldnt trigger this. They could have said whenever a "below deck bunk is occupied" but didnt. Not clear if that was an oversight or intentional. Since they had 30+ passengers aboard its not really a relevant distinction.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

FWIW, the discussion seems to have gone waaaaay off into the weeds (or the kelp) and has delved in minutiae and hair-splitting over the parsing of words. Think big picture because that's what will help you have a firmer grasp not only on what may or may not have happened, but also on what the NTSB may comment on and recommend on October 20.