NSS-CDS / GUE / IANTD Cave Training

[EAN]

I have been doing a little reading on cave diving and see that Dive agencies may be like vehicle brands. There are people that swear the agency they use is the "Best and Safest Ever." I realize that each agency will teach you the skills necessary to safely do cave dives given that you get a very good instructor regardless of agency. However, I would like to know the pros / cons of each if anyone feels there are any.

Thanks.

 

[RJP]

Instructors certify divers, not agencies. Accordingly, the old chestnut "It's the instructor, not the agency" that matters. This is probably much more true in Cave Diving than in OW.

My NACD instructor is also IANTD and NSS-CDS (many cave instructors are) the level of instruction he provides is the same regardless of which card he issues.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

There are several instructors that train for multiple agencies.




Agency doesn't really mean ****, research for a good instructor... and I recommend not taking advice from said instructor's students. They're(students) usually incredibly biased and typically have no refference.

 

[Belmont]

It's the instructor, not the agency.
IANTD's instruction books are in dire need of review, (Chakra and all)
I guess you can find things that are questionable in any curriculum if you look long enough.

 

[StreetDoctor]

If you choose GUE, Mark Messersmith is an awesome dude and a very accomplished diver. Like others have said it's the instructor not the org. I will be doing my cave training with Mark whenever that happens.

 

[EAN]

I suppose the DIR philosophy is more GUE right? I don't know much about those guys or really know of any instructors. I didn't want to ask in their forum as it would definitely be biased. I chose an instructor on my past certifications, so I'll do the same for the rest. Thanks.

 

[TSandM]

Yes, GUE instructors teach a DIR approach to cave diving. But in many ways, by the time you are taking cave training, the differences have gotten much smaller. After all, virtually all backmounting cave divers use a long hose and a bungied backup, non-split fins, spring or taped straps, etc. The major thing is that GUE has a prescription for all of the gear, what it should be and how it is stowed.

Different agencies teach different marking protocols as well, and may have some different ideas on gas management strategies at the more advanced levels.

I have taken TDI, NACD and GUE classes. The GUE classes were the most difficult and the most detailed, and had by far and away the most academic material in them.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I suppose the DIR philosophy is more GUE right? I don't know much about those guys or really know of any instructors. I didn't want to ask in their forum as it would definitely be biased. I chose an instructor on my past certifications, so I'll do the same for the rest. Thanks.

If your profile is accurate, my first recommendation is to get more OW experience before considering cave ... it's a whole different mindset, and being completely comfortable with OW skills is pretty essential to making a reasonable transition.

As for choosing an instructor ... it's really important, more so in cave than in OW, to choose an instructor whose teaching style matches your learning style. Even a great instructor might not be the right one for you. Classes are something of an artificial environment, and if you're constantly playing a game of trying to guess what your instructor wants from you, you lose the essence of what he's trying to teach you. Physical skills are important, but in a cave the mental skills become increasingly important ... despite extensive experience, I was held back on my first attempt at Full Cave not due to my diving skills, but because my mental decisions that weren't quite up to my instructor's standards. Rightfully so ... it's a different environment, and requires a different way of thinking ... and making bad decisions is what usually gets cave divers killed.

Research the different agency programs, sure ... but the differences between instructors will be somewhat greater than the differences between agencies. So interview a few different instructors. Ask them what their prerequisites and expectations are. Ask about the skills taught, how they're taught, the format of the class, the equipment requirements, the number of dives conducted, and contingencies for not passing on the first try ... the good ones will be quite specific in their responses. If someone's vague or evasive, keep looking.

I could recommend my instructor ... I think he did a great job. But he might not be the right instructor for you. Same with everybody else in here ... they might have felt they had a great class ... but you aren't them, and how you interact with your instructor may not be the same as them. Only you can make that determination.

Whomever you choose, go into it prepared for a class that will be physically exhausting, mentally stressful, and demanding of more than your best efforts. Good instructors stress and press you. They're not doing it to be a hard-ass, they want to find out how much stress you can manage without breaking emotionally ... because responding calmly in an emergency will be the difference between living and dying if you should have one ... much more so in a cave than in OW.

I guess what I'm trying to impress is that I look at your profile and think "hmmmm ... should someone with 25-49 dives be thinking about cave diving?" Probably not yet. It's a great goal, and one I wholeheartedly encourage ... just take it slow. Learn where your limits are in OW first ... then think about finding the right instructor to help you expand them to the more demanding environs of a cave ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

If your profile is accurate, my first recommendation is to get more OW experience before considering cave ... it's a whole different mindset, and being completely comfortable with OW skills is pretty essential to making a reasonable transition.

As for choosing an instructor ... it's really important, more so in cave than in OW, to choose an instructor whose teaching style matches your learning style. ...

I could recommend my instructor ... I think he did a great job. But he might not be the right instructor for you. Same with everybody else in here ...

I guess what I'm trying to impress is that I look at your profile and think "hmmmm ... should someone with 25-49 dives be thinking about cave diving?" Probably not yet. It's a great goal, and one I wholeheartedly encourage ... just take it slow. Learn where your limits are in OW first ... then think about finding the right instructor to help you expand them to the more demanding environs of a cave ...

Bob and I had the same instructor, and I wholeheartedly agree with what he says. I would like to add something, though.

On my very first day with that instructor, we were setting up our gear at Ginnie Springs in preparation for my cavern certification dives, much of which is done in the open water. A man came along and started asking questions. He said that he was an AOW diver who was interested in starting cave training. From the way he talked, he sounded like he had more dives than you. My instructor handed him has card. (The fact that he was seriously interested in cave diving was made evident when he later read the card, recognized the name from his reading of the history of cave diving, and asked if he could have his picture taken with him.)

As we were doing my open water dives, we saw the man and his wife diving near us. They were dutifully practicing their skills. When we first noticed them, they were kneeling on the bottom, their butts on their heels, clearing their masks.

I have no idea what you look like when you dive, but if it is anything like that man and his wife, simply doing the same sort of thing over and over again as you gain more open water experience will not help you all that much. As you do what Bob suggested--learn your limits in OW, strive to dive with good buoyancy and trim. Learn to dive perfectly horizontally. Learn to frog kick. Learn to do skills like mask removal and replacement while you are hovering in horizontal trim. If you can master those skills, you will be in good shape when you start your first cave course.

 

[StreetDoctor]

Bob and I had the same instructor, and I wholeheartedly agree with what he says. I would like to add something, though.

On my very first day with that instructor, we were setting up our gear at Ginnie Springs in preparation for my cavern certification dives, much of which is done in the open water. A man came along and started asking questions. He said that he was an AOW diver who was interested in starting cave training. From the way he talked, he sounded like he had more dives than you. My instructor handed him has card. (The fact that he was seriously interested in cave diving was made evident when he later read the card, recognized the name from his reading of the history of cave diving, and asked if he could have his picture taken with him.)

As we were doing my open water dives, we saw the man and his wife diving near us. They were dutifully practicing their skills. When we first noticed them, they were kneeling on the bottom, their butts on their heels, clearing their masks.

I have no idea what you look like when you dive, but if it is anything like that man and his wife, simply doing the same sort of thing over and over again as you gain more open water experience will not help you all that much. As you do what Bob suggested--learn your limits in OW, strive to dive with good buoyancy and trim. Learn to dive perfectly horizontally. Learn to frog kick. Learn to do skills like mask removal and replacement while you are hovering in horizontal trim. If you can master those skills, you will be in good shape when you start your first cave course.

And to add onto what John said... if you aren't sure about what skills are necessary GUE fundamentals is a great place to start and it's also a pre-req for any GUE cave or tech class.