NSS-CDS Effectiveness

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In evaluating all of this, it is important to free your mind and try to be objective. That means having your thinking start from scratch rather than from a need to attack or defend something you currently believe.

A number of years ago I was diving with some friends in Mexico, and one of the people with whom I was diving was planning to take some cave instruction locally over the next few days. As we were exiting a cave, we could not help but notice that the wall to our right had been intentionally defaced, with the very large letters "GUE" carved into the wall. When the dive was over, the friend who was about to take a GUE class was angry, because someone who hated GUE had obviously carved those letters to make GUE look bad. It was absolutely impossible for anyone who had actually taken GUE training to have done such a thing.

The next day we were finishing a dive and getting near the exit of the cave. I was in the front of our group, following the line, when I saw a group entering the cave. I continued along the line, assuming they would move aside to let us pass. Nope. They came straight on, with the lead diver having a very intent stare forward. He was on a mission. At the last minute I pulled away from the line to let them pass. The last person in the line was our friend. This was the GUE class being taken, and the lead diver was the instructor. We talked about it later, and the diver insisted that what happened was simply not possible. It could not have happened. They must have moved aside to let us pass, because no GUE instructor would have done otherwise.

If you enter any discussion with a belief that everything everyone else does is wrong, or that everything everyone on your side does is right, there can be no progress. Accept that we are all human, and it is possible for even people who are 99.9% godlike are capable of error. Accept that we are all human, and even the most disgusting person of the crap agencies might have something reasonable to say.
 
We are trained as divers,but don't have the appreciation of a caver.

I actually think your problem is reversed. You have done plenty about conservation and appreciation of the cave and not enough about training to make sure it becomes a reality. You think people actively want to damage the cave? Cave will be disturbed because people go there, that's a fact of life. I am not going to be holier than thou and say I haven't left a mark or two in clay, but the bulk of this damage is from questionable instructor--poorly rigged stage bottles, iffy buoyancy, failure to correct deficiencies in kicks and trim, failure to teach divers to be aware of these issues and to situationally check themselves during the dive. From what I have seen this stuff either gets glossed over or ignored entirely and it causes issues down the line. It gets passed off as good enough in class so the student thinks its adequate, but really all of class was done on Ginnie Main line or Olsen Tunnel. There is plenty of perfectly diveable cave with less relief than the mud tunnels and divers WILL go there after they get certified. Teach divers with the end in mind.
 
You think people actively want to damage the cave? Cave will be disturbed because people go there, that's a fact of life. I am not going to be holier than thou and say I haven't left a mark or two in clay, but the bulk of this damage is from questionable instructor--poorly rigged stage bottles, iffy buoyancy, failure to correct deficiencies in kicks and trim, failure to teach divers to be aware of these issues and to situationally check themselves during the dive. From what I have seen this stuff either gets glossed over or ignored entirely and it causes issues down the line. It gets passed off as good enough in class so the student thinks its adequate, but really all of class was done on Ginnie Main line or Olsen Tunnel. There is plenty of perfectly diveable cave with less relief than the mud tunnels and divers WILL go there after they get certified. Teach divers with the end in mind.
I've seen several divers pulling on the bottom and everything in sight to move themselves forward in low flow instead of just reading the cave and letting it help move them along. This isn't just a lack of training, it is not caring about conservation, thinking damage will occur from just being there so it is no big deal, and feeling it is ok if nobody sees them doing it.
 
If you re-ready my post I did acknowledge similar things happen with other agencies. I never denied that. I will very strongly state that you need to take GUE out of that mix. You can definitely get bad GUE instruction,.

I don't want to take the time or energy to get involved because I have issues with some of the names within the CDS, and I also am very busy and don't have the time...

Well, this damn English language. I never said that you would get bad instruction from anyone, just that there are variations from instructor to instructor. Doesn't matter the agency.

You have just made the point I have been trying to get to. You do not want to be involved because you have issues with certain people, and you are busy. Fine, I understand that. Yet, you have enough time to bad mouth their instructors, students, and the agency. I never said the CDS doesn't need improvement, but why waste your energy complaining if you are not willing to help.
 
I started cave diving in 1996. I knew virtually every active north Florida cave diver by face. Today, I couldn’t even recognize every cave instructor, let alone diver. They’re are easily 50x more active cave divers today than there were in the 90’s

No, you are just getting old and starting to forget faces. Next, you will forget names. Then you will forget to pull up your zipper, and finally, you will forget to pull it down.
 
No, you are just getting old and starting to forget faces. Next, you will forget names. Then you will forget to pull up your zipper, and finally, you will forget to pull it down.

Got caught in my zipper recently, holy crap that sucked.
 
Well, this damn English language. I never said that you would get bad instruction from anyone, just that there are variations from instructor to instructor. Doesn't matter the agency.

You have just made the point I have been trying to get to. You do not want to be involved because you have issues with certain people, and you are busy. Fine, I understand that. Yet, you have enough time to bad mouth their instructors, students, and the agency. I never said the CDS doesn't need improvement, but why waste your energy complaining if you are not willing to help.

I can complain as much as I want. I'm a member (albeit free member not by choice) and have been for years. I see things I don't like. I would go to a BOD meeting but I never seem to know when they are. I have voiced my concerns to people on the board and it went nowhere. I asked for my issues to be discussed. They discussed discussing those issues, but never actually met again to have that discussion. I see lots of bad instructors from the CDS and other agencies, but as superlyte said the CDS seems to hold itself in a very high regard that I don't think they're deserving of. I have been vocal and have named names of "legacy" instructors I think should lose their cert to teach people. I've got alot of people agreeing with my opinion, but not a single person (including people in the position to do something) wants to get involved. I was going to nominate myself for the BOD about 5 years ago and was fervently convinced not to do it by two people who had been on the BOD. And lastly it's muc easier to air my grievances here than it is to show up to a BOD meeting or join the BOD. There are people reading this in the position to make changes just like the people I've spoken to directly about it. So they should take this thread to the next BOD meeting and see if someone will actually give a hoot. Because so far nobody has.
So as a member I have the right to bitch wherever I want even if I choose to not get involved (for personal reasons). Ken knows me and the fact that if I want a day off of work I need to plan it 6-8 months in advance minimum. That makes it hard to join in as a BOD member. But on my downtime at work I can post here because it works with my schedule. Lastly, I honestly don't want to be a CDS member. I would much rather be involved in the NFSA. The ONLY reason I continue to renew (eventhough I can't actually renew) is to dive Cow. But now I pretty much never dive Cow because I don't want to deal with the headache of showing up at Dive Outpost to ask for the key and them not be able to prove that I'm a member since I never received a membership card with my "free" membership. And last I checked eventhough Adam asterisked my name as a temporary free life member in the database, it didn't actually show up when DO checked. So in reality I have pretty much no reason to be a member other than the extreme rarity I choose to dive Cow.
It's like Umfufu said in Eddie Murphy Raw, "what have you done for me lately Eddie?" The answer is nothing
 
Here's a solution for that money and a guaranteed way to drum up membership....

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/203rd-Rd-Live-Oak-FL-32060/2076682217_zpid/

Like I wrote before: their next rallying cry! :)

That’s the type of campaign that I and likely others could get behind. But *NOT* without a history of strong money management. A strong auditor would need to be in place.

Seriously: I’ve got at least a grand I would contribute — does that get me lifetime access?
 
They probably don't need to keep the entire property. They can sell any excess property.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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