Not understanding the long hose thing

[Blackwood]

That's a very specialized application ... don't you think? And it's taught as a safety response by the donor rather than a primary response by the receiver.

Are you aware of any agency that trains an OOA diver to simply take the reg out of another diver's mouth?

I'm not ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

None. I'm aware of many agencies that teach divers to expect it, but none that explicitly say "do this."


My question to you was in an effort to extend as much benefit of the doubt to the BSAC guy. It seems likely that he's looking at the standards and procedures of other agencies in piecemeal, so maybe he looked at protocol for getting gas when you can't see and applied it across the board.

 

[captain]

Frankly I can see the benifit of the long hose in some or all OW situations . I just don't want it wrapped around me, bungied or tucked somewhere is fine. In that respect I agree with the BSAC, obviously others don't.
Mostly I dive my double hose and it ain't gonna be the donor reg. If some dufus runs himself out of gas and grabs the long hose I am not worried about restowing it.

 

[Blackwood]

It's like a Ford Chevy argument.

It would be like that if the Chevy guys claimed that to allow a passenger into your Ford you have to first make a u-turn.

 

[scubafanatic]

......don't get too obsessed with 7' as the magic/sacred length......for my recreational regs I'm running standard length 32" - 36"-ish Atomic swivel hoses on my primaries....and my 'octos' are Apex Egress 'omnidirectional' (flat-pancake type) on 4' MIFLEX hoses. I do it 'backwards'....I don't donate my primary to an OOG diver, as I'm using a full size SEACURE which most divers would find a bit too 'big'......but my 'octo' is bungied around my neck and is meant to be pulled out of the bungie-holder to be deployed to the OOG diver. Since I'm using the Egress octo, which works in any orientation, a 4' hose is sufficiently long......and 4' is just long enough to tuck the hose loop under my Halcyon right-side mask pocket so that it stays neatly tucked away when not in use. I really have used/deployed this 4' hose/octo combo both as a donor and a receiver of gas.....and this configuration works just fine. It is even suitable for gas donation in a narrow swimthrough with one diver trailing in line behind the 2nd diver. I think a 7' hose, which also certainly works too, is just a bit of overkill for the OW/tourist situation and it's nice to be able to manage just fine with 3' less of hose to deal with.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

......don't get too obsessed with 7' as the magic/sacred length......

I don't see anyone doing that ... except perhaps certain people who are arguing against it.

Those of us who use them have been universally saying that it's just another option that offers advantages in certain circumstances.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

BSAC wrote:
In contrast an alternative gas demand valve placed within the triangle of access combined with a long hose, stowed carefully under elastic bungees, either on the side of a cylinder or under the elastic ties of a wing or indeed any other method of hose stowage that can be relied upon to deploy efficiently without any action needed by the donor to ensure rapid deployment, works effectively and efficiently in all circumstances and with all equipment types or configurations, including rebreathers. An added benefit of the above system is that all recreational divers will have been trained in the use of alternative gas source. Minimal retraining is required as the only new element is the long hose and method of stowage.

I led a group of divers on a trip to Cozumel on behalf of our LDS a couple of weeks ago. We used Aldora divers, who use steel HP 120s for the dives, and they do everything they can to give the group maximum bottom time. Their DMs do use the long hose (7') as the alternate, as BSAC suggests. In order to extend dive time for the group, Aldora's policy is that when a diver reaches 1,000 PSI, they will share air with the DM for a while, so that the group does not have to ascend prematurely because one diver is going through air quickly. Divers in our group who reached that point had no trouble with this technique, just as BSAC suggests.

However...

We actually had more than one diver in our group in such a situation, and once the DM saw that I could be trusted to handle the situation, I was used to share air with the second person to reach 1,000 PSI for the rest of the week. I had a long (7') hose as well, but mine was on my primary. Astonishingly enough, the receivers who took gas from me for that whole week were able to deal with that. I am sure BSAC will have trouble believing this, but the divers who took gas from me knew what to do with the regulator I handed them every bit as much as the divers who had the alternate regulator handed to them by the DM.

We would then swim side by side in a nice, relaxed fashion until it was pretty much time for everyone to make the final ascent to the safety stop, at which point the hose was returned, I stowed it without incident, and we completed a pleasant dive.

BTW, last year, when I was still using a conventional setup, I had the opportunity to provide air to an Aldora DM. He extruded an O-ring, took off his BCD, shut off his air, and fixed the problem. He somehow knew what to do with my short hose alternate, even though he normally used a long hose. People are more adaptable than some people give them credit for.

 

[boulderjohn]

Interesting the take some people have on this thread:

We are not in the DIR forum. The baggage is 16 pages of this. I am sorry that DIR proponents cannot leave room in their zealotry to allow for the FACT that SCUBA can be accomplished efficiently and safely without full technical gear for a shallow reef dive and that knowledgeable and skilled divers might choose to do so.

I am sorry that I disagree with the hard sell on DIR for sport diving, I do not believe that the long hose is necessarily a better concept for most open water sport diving. Yes it works, is it better than other methods for open water sport diving (which is what this thread is about)--NO.

......don't get too obsessed with 7' as the magic/sacred length.

Here are some quotes that seem to me to be representative of the discussion from the long hose advocates:

I'm not saying one is wrong and the other is the way to go, but I, for me, made an informed decision and am very happy with it and would never go back.

Folks, if the long hose doesn't float your boat ... don't use it. Seems simple enough. There's plenty of different configurations out there that work quite OK for simple reef diving.

It's not something that can't be overcome but it's not like it's a slam dunk when something simpler might work just as well.

The short hose works, obviously. Use what you like. But the long hose works as well and it's quite convenient for an OW bumbler like me.

Come on guys, open your minds. Actually try something a few times before you resort to the "old school" bashing of other ideas.

I say if it works for you, dive it. If not, dive something else.

No, you aren't going to die because you are using a conventional setup in the open water. If needed, the system should work just fine for its intended purpose. But I do like the long hose setup better.

First things first: Your call on what to use and why to use it. Rock on!
...
I'm not suggesting you change your mind. The thread exists to give you the information you need to make your decision. But I do encourage you to resist the temptation to lump long hoses in with the more technical gear. It's just a different way to configure the exact same gear you already have for the dives you are already making.

No "DIR" people in this thread are saying that everyone MUST dive a long hose in all environments (though DIR folks choose to). Rather they are responding to the continually-proffered, vociferously-conveyed, yet wholly-unfounded suggestion that a long-hose is specifically and dangerously INAPPROPRIATE in some environments. (ie: relatively shallow, recreational open-water dives.)

I think that may be the problem; I don't think most advocates are saying you "need" one for OW. Some people may subscribe to a method/regime of diving that places a high premium on standardization so they desire to dive the same rig as their team mates do, in all conditions. Some others may not subscribe to that regime but just like the set up and are telling you why - just as some like the PADI/triangle set up.

That's just their choice - they don't need to appologise for it.

Just take what you want and leave the rest - as long as you're not knocking my choice to dive 6351 alloy its all good :cool2:

I don't see anyone doing that ... except perhaps certain people who are arguing against it.

Those of us who use them have been universally saying that it's just another option that offers advantages in certain circumstances.

In order to find these quotes, I reread every post in the thread. I did not see a single post that pushed the use of the long hose in recreational situations. I did not see any promotion of DIR. I did not see any obsession with "7' as the magic/sacred length."

If I missed something, I stand corrected, and I hope someone will point that out.

 

[OldNSalty]

If I missed something, I stand corrected, and I hope someone will point that out.

You didn't miss much. In this thread there wasn’t one…

No one knows who fired the first shot…or why…It may have been a DIR zealot or it could have been from someone offended at the implication that they were ‘doing it wrong’. I have encountered a few of these zealots on both sides, they’re all asses. I have encountered far more good, skilled and friendly divers; DIR, vintage, warm water cold water and recreational. Good skilled, knowledgeable, friendly divers can be found everywhere and they all use different set ups.

Ya know, maybe it is the diver, and the desire to be good and not the gear configurations….just a thought.

Now, how do I attach my Air2 to the 7 foot hose?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

.....

 

[cbrich]

In order to find these quotes, I reread every post in the thread. I did not see a single post that pushed the use of the long hose in recreational situations. I did not see any promotion of DIR. I did not see any obsession with "7' as the magic/sacred length."

If I missed something, I stand corrected, and I hope someone will point that out.

Since this has got out of hand I might as well say this for the long hose. YOU WILL DIE, IF YOUR SETUP IS DIFFERENT FROM MINE. I use a 7', but I am shooting for a waterproof laptop so I can plug in the USB gas adapter and get free air, nitrox, trimix, heliox, oxygen, nitrogen, argon, hydrogen from my computer. This setup will only include a second stage since the adapter combines stray electrons, protons, and neutrons to make the gas I programmed into it.

Come why has the is post gone on and on. A lot of peole use the standard hose and a lot people use the 7' hose. I use a 7' because I personally like it. Is it better than a standard hose, No (they are equal). Do I put myself in a higher risk categorie because I use it for recreational diving, NO. I do make sure that my buddy knows they will be getting the regulator I am breathing from for an OOG scenario, because my octo is tied around my neck. All I can say about a 7' hose is give it try, because a 7' miflex hose is about $60. If the user does not like the setup, they can always sell the 7' miflex hose for about the same amount.