Not understanding the long hose thing

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When I read the continuous long hose/short hose threads it certainly makes solo diving my prime option.

I do learn from these threads: RJP and ScubaInChicago have very informative comments.
 
FWIW, I wasn't trolling. I was curious. Tried to find out why I'd need a longer hose in an open water dive. Heard lots of reasons, but other than people just not wanting to be that near someone else during a controlled ascent, I still haven't seen any advantage for a longer hose in open water.
Thanks for all the responses though. Peace.
I've never been involved in an OOA situation, but on three occasions I have used the long hose for a low on air diver to swim along side me back to our exit point. It was more comfortable extending our bottom time than making a surface swim. It's nice to be able to swim a couple feet apart rather than hold on to someone else while sharing air.
 
I was curious. Tried to find out why I'd need a longer hose in an open water dive.

I think that may be the problem; I don't think most advocates are saying you "need" one for OW. Some people may subscribe to a method/regime of diving that places a high premium on standardization so they desire to dive the same rig as their team mates do, in all conditions. Some others may not subscribe to that regime but just like the set up and are telling you why - just as some like the PADI/triangle set up.

That's just their choice - they don't need to appologise for it. Just as I don't need to appologise for diving solo or with vintage gear (or solo with vintage gear). That's my choice. Divers would certainly benefit if they spent more time trying to learn from other peoples methods instead of knocking them down to raise their own higher.

I dive both a tech/rec rig and a vintage/eclectic rig; sometimes during the same dive day. I'm not pure enough to be considered true vintage and too quirky to be considered DIR but I don't care. I respect and learn from everybody regardless.

I guess I'm fortunate enough that I have met good DIR divers and have had the privilige to talk to some very experienced members of that group. I've not had a negative reaction from them (even though I can't go there because of the nature of my diving). I've also been blessed to be getting to know many awesome vintage divers who are some of the most generous divers around (both with equipment and experience).

Just take what you want and leave the rest - as long as you're not knocking my choice to dive 6351 alloy its all good :cool2:
 
I tend to agree with BSAC, as borrowed from another thread:
____________________________________________________________________________
Originally Posted by BSAC
Dec 2009

“Hogarthian rigging” and “Primary take” when teaching “out of gas response” on BSAC courses

Dear BSAC Instructor,

The recent introduction of the BSAC Sports Mixed Gas course and the subsequent automatic upgrading of all Extended Range Diver Instructors with a mixed gas qualification to Sports Mixed Gas Instructor have highlighted a problem. This problem concerns the teaching of “Hogarthian rigging” and “Primary take” within BSAC courses in general and on BSAC Technical courses specifically. Instructors who have qualified via the instructor workshop or observed course routes will be familiar with the BSAC policy regarding these techniques. However, it transpires that many of you who have automatically upgraded from ERD Instructor or those of you who teach within the regular Diver Training Programme (OD, SD, DL & AD) may not. I am therefore taking the opportunity to remove any ambiguity by explaining the BSAC policy and the reasoning behind it.

Definition of terms:

“Primary Donate” is the technique of a donating the demand valve the donor is breathing from to an out of gas casualty, the donor then resorts to his/her alternative gas demand valve.

“Primary Take” is the technique were an out of gas casualty snatches/takes the donors regulator independent of any action by the donor, the donor then has to take up his/her secondary demand valve.

“Hogarthian Rigging” is the technique of routing a long (1.5 metre – 2 metre) primary regulator hose from the cylinder valve, under the right armpit, around the front of the body, around the back of the neck and culminating in the primary dmand valve being the one the diver is breathing from.

BSAC has conducted field trials and as a result have arrived at the conclusion that “Hogarthian rigging” and “Primary Take” are incompatible with techniques taught within BSAC training programmes, do not work efficiently without significant donor input in some circumstances and are incompatible with some equipment types.

BSAC is aware that these techniques are taught and promoted exclusively by one US technical diving agency and favoured by some technical diving instructors from other agencies which, whilst not necessarily promoting it do not proscribe it either. Therefore I would like to take the opportunity to clarify BSAC policy as it is important to ensure you all understand why BSAC has taken a firm position on these particular techniques.

Some instructors from other training agencies teach and promote “Primary take”. This is where the casualty is taught to take the primary demand valve from the donor’s mouth. Incident statistics have indicated that this has the potential to have serious and dangerous consequences. Most divers have not been conditioned to cope with such an event and there is an element of transfer of the problem from casualty to donor within this procedure. Fortunately current incident reports dicate that “Primary Take” is not a common response and most out of gas casualties have resorted to their conditioning by training to give the appropriate signal and accept donation. It can be readily seen however that “primary take” is completely incompatible with rebreathers. For all of these reasons BSAC does not support or allow this technique to be taught by BSAC instructors to BSAC members or on BSAC courses.

“Primary donate” clearly ensures that an out of gas casualty will receive a working demand valve that supplies a breathable gas and if confronted with an out of gas diver the donor will choose whether to donate his/her primary or secondary demand valve. As long as the secondary demand valve is readily and easily accessible and the donor is well practiced in dealing with it this is workable. However, it is worth noting that this is not the only method of ensuring this desirable result. An alternative gas demand valve prominently placed within the triangle of access can achieve this equally well and has the advantage that the donor does not need to remove his/her own regulator and thus possibly exacerbate the problem. This latter is also a system that recreational divers will be conditioned to and familiar with, a benefit in terms of reduced training requirement when moving to upgrade their diving skills but also a system they are familiar with if confronted with an emergency underwater.

BSAC fully approves and supports the use of long hoses (1.5 metres - 2.0metres) to allow freedom of movement between donor and casualty in any out of gas situation. However the question of whether the diver breathes from the long or short hose arises when a long hose is fitted. Divers using independent twin-sets have a dilemma in that they have to swap demand valves at intervals during a dive. Since with independent twin-sets both regulators are in effect primary regulators the only complete solution in this case is to have long hoses on both regulators such that which ever demand valve is donated there is a long hose to facilitate freedom of movement.

In the case of a twin-set fitted with an isolation manifold there is a primary and secondary regulator and many divers employ a long hose on one and a standard hose on the other. The decision as to whether to breathe from the long or standard length hose is defined by whether the diver chooses to adopt primary donate or alternative gas source. However, instructors and divers should consider that swapping demand valves at least once during the dive to prove bothregulators are in full working condition at depth is good practice. Having both regulators fitted with long hoses covers all bases and is worth consideration even with this configuration.

The field trials BSAC conducted with “Hogarthian rigging” revealed a number of issues. The primary and essential criteria when considering hose routing and stowage for the donation demand valve must always be ease and efficiency of deployment covering the widest possible range of deployment situations. Re-stowage is not and cannot be the defining criteria.

“Hogarthian rig” is favoured by some for the simple reason that it is by far the easiest method to restow, the donor can easily re-stow the hose without assistance. An instructor may demonstrate deployment and re-stow a number of times without difficulty. However, re-stowing is of little significance compared to efficiency of deployment. In a real out of gas emergency the out of gas casualty needs a quick, seamless and efficient deployment to facilitate a successful result. Having completed the donation and with the out of gas situation fully resolved it is unlikely that donation will be required again in the dive therefore the hose may then be re-stowed in any convenient way.

Deployment of a Hogarthian rigged demand valve can be problematic in some circumstances. The ideal situation is for both divers to be more or less horizontal and facing each other. In this situation the hose should deploy easily. Where both divers are vertical and facing each other in the water it will be necessary for the donor to rotate forward to facilitate deployment over the head. There is a possibility of dragging the donors mask strap off but this can be avoided by wearing the mask strap underneath the hood. If the casualty approaches from the left side of or from behind however, the donor must quickly rotate forward and to the left to allow deployment of the long hose. If the casualty approaches from below the donor then it is necessary for the donor to roll forwards to facilitate deployment. In these cases the donor has to take significant action to enable the technique to work and this becomes proportionately more of a problem with the level of stress and urgency being experienced by the casualty. BSAC does not advocate that Hogarthian rig cannot be made to work, it is merely that it is a
system that may require significant and speedy action from the donor to ensure it works, without such donor input there is significant potential for snag and pocedure failure.

In contrast an alternative gas demand valve placed within the triangle of access combined with a long hose, stowed carefully under elastic bungees, either on the side of a cylinder or under the elastic ties of a wing or indeed any other method of hose stowage that can be relied upon to deploy efficiently without any action needed by the donor to ensure rapid deployment, works effectively and efficiently in all circumstances and with all equipment types or configurations, including rebreathers. An added benefit of the above system is that all recreational divers will have been trained in the use of alternative gas source. Minimal retraining is required as the only new element is the long hose and method of stowage.

In summary, it is clearly desirable that consistent and uniform emergency response techniques are established. The advantages of adopting a system that is widely taught and understood world wide at recreational level therefore requires minimal reconditioning through training and works efficiently without donor input with all equipment types and configurations are self evident. Therefore on the basis of trials and evidence BSAC has opted to teach as a preferred technique:

1. Alternative demand valve stowed within the triangle of access
2. The donation of a demand valve when required
3. The configuration of a long hose/s stowed in elastic bungees such that it/they will deploy efficiently and seamlessly when required.

This preferred technique does not involve the use of “Hogarthian rigging” or “primary Take”. BSAC standards and policy require that these techniques cannot be taught by BSAC instructors to BSAC members or on BSAC courses. The various BSAC Course Instructor Manuals provide clear guidance on preferred techniques to be taught on BSAC courses.

I hope this has clarified the situation and given an understanding of the reasoning behind it.

Regards

Mike Rowley
NDC Technical Group Leader
techg.leader@bsac.com
_____________________________________________________________________________

The mixing of technical and recreational techniques and gear configurations, leading recreational or sport divers in a variety of BCs and other gear, often with snorkels (as taught them) to mix and match often inappropriate combinations of technique, gear and rigging has high potential for multiplying an OOA into a double fatality. It is reckless and potentially dangerous to encourage the (partial implementation of) Hogarthain and primary donation for recreational divers who have not been trained in what is a cave diving system. I don't agree with the BSAC in terms of the technical or cave where the Hogarthian concepts are well established and effective and is taught as a system approach.

You cannot be assured that long hose primary donation will combine safely with various BCs or other related equipment without some potential for entanglement and while a trained and experienced technical diver might recognize those danger points, the average recreational sport diver may not, until perhaps there is an OOA and an attempted donation.

If you are going to promote the long hose, "Hog-looping" and donate primary, then it needs to be made clear (to recreational divers trained in secondary donation) this is part of a larger system of equipment and training and more than just purchasing a long hose and screwing it into the regulator first. Since this method is NOT taught by the majority of training agencies to recreational sport divers it is irresponsible to encourage it's use (by recreational sport divers) without the necessary training to implement the Hogarthian/DIR methods in their entirety.

N
 
I tend to agree with BSAC, as borrowed from another thread:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by BSAC
Dec 2009

“Hogarthian rigging” and “Primary take” when teaching “out of gas response” on BSAC courses

Dear BSAC Instructor,

The recent introduction of the BSAC Sports Mixed Gas course and the subsequent automatic upgrading of all Extended Range Diver Instructors with a mixed gas qualification to Sports Mixed Gas Instructor have highlighted a problem. This problem concerns the teaching of “Hogarthian rigging” and “Primary take” within BSAC courses in general and on BSAC Technical courses specifically. Instructors who have qualified via the instructor workshop or observed course routes will be familiar with the BSAC policy regarding these techniques. However, it transpires that many of you who have automatically upgraded from ERD Instructor or those of you who teach within the regular Diver Training Programme (OD, SD, DL & AD) may not. I am therefore taking the opportunity to remove any ambiguity by explaining the BSAC policy and the reasoning behind it.

Definition of terms:

“Primary Donate” is the technique of a donating the demand valve the donor is breathing from to an out of gas casualty, the donor then resorts to his/her alternative gas demand valve.

“Primary Take” is the technique were an out of gas casualty snatches/takes the donors regulator independent of any action by the donor, the donor then has to take up his/her secondary demand valve.

“Hogarthian Rigging” is the technique of routing a long (1.5 metre – 2 metre) primary regulator hose from the cylinder valve, under the right armpit, around the front of the body, around the back of the neck and culminating in the primary dmand valve being the one the diver is breathing from.

BSAC has conducted field trials and as a result have arrived at the conclusion that “Hogarthian rigging” and “Primary Take” are incompatible with techniques taught within BSAC training programmes, do not work efficiently without significant donor input in some circumstances and are incompatible with some equipment types.

BSAC is aware that these techniques are taught and promoted exclusively by one US technical diving agency and favoured by some technical diving instructors from other agencies which, whilst not necessarily promoting it do not proscribe it either. Therefore I would like to take the opportunity to clarify BSAC policy as it is important to ensure you all understand why BSAC has taken a firm position on these particular techniques.

Some instructors from other training agencies teach and promote “Primary take”. This is where the casualty is taught to take the primary demand valve from the donor’s mouth. Incident statistics have indicated that this has the potential to have serious and dangerous consequences. Most divers have not been conditioned to cope with such an event and there is an element of transfer of the problem from casualty to donor within this procedure. Fortunately current incident reports dicate that “Primary Take” is not a common response and most out of gas casualties have resorted to their conditioning by training to give the appropriate signal and accept donation. It can be readily seen however that “primary take” is completely incompatible with rebreathers. For all of these reasons BSAC does not support or allow this technique to be taught by BSAC instructors to BSAC members or on BSAC courses.

“Primary donate” clearly ensures that an out of gas casualty will receive a working demand valve that supplies a breathable gas and if confronted with an out of gas diver the donor will choose whether to donate his/her primary or secondary demand valve. As long as the secondary demand valve is readily and easily accessible and the donor is well practiced in dealing with it this is workable. However, it is worth noting that this is not the only method of ensuring this desirable result. An alternative gas demand valve prominently placed within the triangle of access can achieve this equally well and has the advantage that the donor does not need to remove his/her own regulator and thus possibly exacerbate the problem. This latter is also a system that recreational divers will be conditioned to and familiar with, a benefit in terms of reduced training requirement when moving to upgrade their diving skills but also a system they are familiar with if confronted with an emergency underwater.

BSAC fully approves and supports the use of long hoses (1.5 metres - 2.0metres) to allow freedom of movement between donor and casualty in any out of gas situation. However the question of whether the diver breathes from the long or short hose arises when a long hose is fitted. Divers using independent twin-sets have a dilemma in that they have to swap demand valves at intervals during a dive. Since with independent twin-sets both regulators are in effect primary regulators the only complete solution in this case is to have long hoses on both regulators such that which ever demand valve is donated there is a long hose to facilitate freedom of movement.

In the case of a twin-set fitted with an isolation manifold there is a primary and secondary regulator and many divers employ a long hose on one and a standard hose on the other. The decision as to whether to breathe from the long or standard length hose is defined by whether the diver chooses to adopt primary donate or alternative gas source. However, instructors and divers should consider that swapping demand valves at least once during the dive to prove bothregulators are in full working condition at depth is good practice. Having both regulators fitted with long hoses covers all bases and is worth consideration even with this configuration.

The field trials BSAC conducted with “Hogarthian rigging” revealed a number of issues. The primary and essential criteria when considering hose routing and stowage for the donation demand valve must always be ease and efficiency of deployment covering the widest possible range of deployment situations. Re-stowage is not and cannot be the defining criteria.

“Hogarthian rig” is favoured by some for the simple reason that it is by far the easiest method to restow, the donor can easily re-stow the hose without assistance. An instructor may demonstrate deployment and re-stow a number of times without difficulty. However, re-stowing is of little significance compared to efficiency of deployment. In a real out of gas emergency the out of gas casualty needs a quick, seamless and efficient deployment to facilitate a successful result. Having completed the donation and with the out of gas situation fully resolved it is unlikely that donation will be required again in the dive therefore the hose may then be re-stowed in any convenient way.

Deployment of a Hogarthian rigged demand valve can be problematic in some circumstances. The ideal situation is for both divers to be more or less horizontal and facing each other. In this situation the hose should deploy easily. Where both divers are vertical and facing each other in the water it will be necessary for the donor to rotate forward to facilitate deployment over the head. There is a possibility of dragging the donors mask strap off but this can be avoided by wearing the mask strap underneath the hood. If the casualty approaches from the left side of or from behind however, the donor must quickly rotate forward and to the left to allow deployment of the long hose. If the casualty approaches from below the donor then it is necessary for the donor to roll forwards to facilitate deployment. In these cases the donor has to take significant action to enable the technique to work and this becomes proportionately more of a problem with the level of stress and urgency being experienced by the casualty. BSAC does not advocate that Hogarthian rig cannot be made to work, it is merely that it is a
system that may require significant and speedy action from the donor to ensure it works, without such donor input there is significant potential for snag and pocedure failure.

In contrast an alternative gas demand valve placed within the triangle of access combined with a long hose, stowed carefully under elastic bungees, either on the side of a cylinder or under the elastic ties of a wing or indeed any other method of hose stowage that can be relied upon to deploy efficiently without any action needed by the donor to ensure rapid deployment, works effectively and efficiently in all circumstances and with all equipment types or configurations, including rebreathers. An added benefit of the above system is that all recreational divers will have been trained in the use of alternative gas source. Minimal retraining is required as the only new element is the long hose and method of stowage.

In summary, it is clearly desirable that consistent and uniform emergency response techniques are established. The advantages of adopting a system that is widely taught and understood world wide at recreational level therefore requires minimal reconditioning through training and works efficiently without donor input with all equipment types and configurations are self evident. Therefore on the basis of trials and evidence BSAC has opted to teach as a preferred technique:

1. Alternative demand valve stowed within the triangle of access
2. The donation of a demand valve when required
3. The configuration of a long hose/s stowed in elastic bungees such that it/they will deploy efficiently and seamlessly when required.

This preferred technique does not involve the use of “Hogarthian rigging” or “primary Take”. BSAC standards and policy require that these techniques cannot be taught by BSAC instructors to BSAC members or on BSAC courses. The various BSAC Course Instructor Manuals provide clear guidance on preferred techniques to be taught on BSAC courses.

I hope this has clarified the situation and given an understanding of the reasoning behind it.

Regards

Mike Rowley
NDC Technical Group Leader
techg.leader@bsac.com


_________________________________________________________________________________

Thanks Nem

Makes good sence to me, but lets not let good sence muddy the water.
 
Thanks Nem

Makes good sence to me, but lets not let good sence muddy the water.

Well it may make good "sence" to you, but there is so much misinformation in that missive that it amazes me the person who wrote it could claim the title of "Technical Group Leader" ... whatever that means.

I really don't care what any agency mandates, or what any diver chooses to use ... but propogating misinformation from a position of authority like this just causes me to lose all respect for the agency.

If they're gonna take a position, it would behoove them to learn a little bit about the subject first.

Some obvious and glaring errors ...

bsac:
BSAC is aware that these techniques are taught and promoted exclusively by one US technical diving agency and favoured by some technical diving instructors from other agencies which, whilst not necessarily promoting it do not proscribe it either.
These techniques are taught and mandated by GUE, UTD, NAUI Tech, NSS-CDS, NACD, and pretty much any other technical agency that trains people for overhead environments. They were also required for the IANTD and TDI classes I took, although I cannot say for sure that the agency requires it or whether my instructor did.

bsac:
Some instructors from other training agencies teach and promote “Primary take”. is where the casualty is taught to take the primary demand valve from the donor’s mouth.
No agency I'm aware of trains this method, nor even approves it as a legitimate thing to do. Some train a diver how to respond should someone grab the reg from their mouth. But that's a safety response to an unplanned reaction by a potentially panicked diver ... which is a completely different matter.

bsac:
It can be readily seen however that “primary take” is completely incompatible with rebreathers.
Uh ... this is a complete non-sequitor" since in mixed teams there are a completely different set of procedures which involve the use of a bailout bottle and will be the same regardless of the configuration worn by the OC diver. The fact that this statement is even in here tells me that either the author doesn't understand the procedures for diving mixed teams, or is simply looking for rationalizations.

bsac:
In the case of a twin-set fitted with an isolation manifold there is a primary and secondary regulator and many divers employ a long hose on one and a standard hose on the other. The decision as to whether to breathe from the long or standard length hose is defined by whether the diver chooses to adopt primary donate or alternative gas source. However, instructors and divers should consider that swapping demand valves at least once during the dive to prove bothregulators are in full working condition at depth is good practice. Having both regulators fitted with long hoses covers all bases and is worth consideration even with this configuration.
Is there a doubles diver out there on ScubaBoard who dives two long-hoses? If so, I'd like to hear how you route them, and what advantages they offer.

To my concern, that would create more problems than it would solve, and it seems to be a statement written by someone who's more familiar with a keyboard than a set of doubles.

bsac:
Deployment of a Hogarthian rigged demand valve can be problematic in some circumstances. The ideal situation is for both divers to be more or less horizontal and facing each other. In this situation the hose should deploy easily. Where both divers are vertical and facing each other in the water it will be necessary for the donor to rotate forward to facilitate deployment over the head.
No ... it is NOT necessary to do that. This statement literally screams ignorance on the part of the author.

bsac:
There is a possibility of dragging the donors mask strap off but this can be avoided by wearing the mask strap underneath the hood.
Well, through several years of using this method, thousands of deployments, and years of teaching it to others, I have NEVER ... not even once ... seen anyone experience an issue with their mask while deploying a long hose. This seems to me to be a fabricated argument.

bsac:
If the casualty approaches from the left side of or from behind however, the donor must quickly rotate forward and to the left to allow deployment of the long hose.
... and this differs from a standard deployment ... how? No matter what angle the "casualty" approaches from, all that is necessary is to see the "casualty", identify the problem, and hand them your primary. If you are donating from the "golden triangle" area, the same will be true.

bsac:
If the casualty approaches from below the donor then it is necessary for the donor to roll forwards to facilitate deployment.
No it doesn't ... I would posit that a long-hose deployment can be performed more quickly and easily than the standard configuration in this instance, since the long hose can more easily be handed off in virtually any direction to the length of the donor's arm.

bsac:
In summary, it is clearly desirable that consistent and uniform emergency response techniques are established. The advantages of adopting a system that is widely taught and understood world wide at recreational level therefore requires minimal reconditioning through training and works efficiently without donor input with all equipment types and configurations are self evident. Therefore on the basis of trials and evidence BSAC has opted to teach as a preferred technique:

1. Alternative demand valve stowed within the triangle of access
2. The donation of a demand valve when required
3. The configuration of a long hose/s stowed in elastic bungees such that it/they will deploy efficiently and seamlessly when required.

This preferred technique does not involve the use of “Hogarthian rigging” or “primary Take”. BSAC standards and policy require that these techniques cannot be taught by BSAC instructors to BSAC members or on BSAC courses. The various BSAC Course Instructor Manuals provide clear guidance on preferred techniques to be taught on BSAC courses.
This is all that really needed to be said. BSAC is certainly within their rights to promote any configuration that they deem is consistent with their training goals. However, to do so through the promotion of misinformation and ignorance is appalling and should be, to the BSAC members out there, an embarrassment.

I would welcome the opportunity to debate Mr. Rowley on this board over the statements I have taken exception to above ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
You cannot be assured that long hose primary donation will combine safely with various BCs or other related equipment without some potential for entanglement <snip>

If you are going to promote the long hose, "Hog-looping" and donate primary, then it needs to be made clear (to recreational divers trained in secondary donation) this is part of a larger system of equipment and training and more than just purchasing a long hose and screwing it into the regulator first.

I agree to the extent that you shouldn't blindly implement an equipment change without knowing how to use it safely and properly, and any change should be quickly followed by practice in using the new set-up.

But aren't many LDS Recreational shops doing exactly what you advice against when they equip Rec divers with Air2/Safe Seconds? To further cloud the issue and possibly cause trouble if the diver needs to donate, many Safe Second users stay with standard length primary hose.

Henrik
 
No agency I'm aware of trains this method, nor even approves it as a legitimate thing to do.

What were you taught to do lights-out OOG in a cave?
 
What were you taught to do lights-out OOG in a cave?

That's a very specialized application ... don't you think? And it's taught as a safety response by the donor rather than a primary response by the receiver.

Are you aware of any agency that trains an OOA diver to simply take the reg out of another diver's mouth?

I'm not ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 

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