Not Feeling Well? New Hand signal.

[boulderjohn]

Why don't you just signal problem and point to your body? This new signal doesn't indicate medical problem. Could be don't feel well.


Yeah, I don't think so. If I have a student that does not want to be underwater, we are all going up and sorting it out. I'm not asking for trouble. There was an issue with Scott Cassell's girlfriend taking an open water course from an SSI shop in Monterey.


Nope. Not needed. "Problem." "Point to buddy", "thumbs up." Done.

I don't seem to have communicated effectively. I apologize for my poor writing skills.

I never advocated for a new signal. As I said several times in this thread, the existing signals work fine. What I called for is a simple reminder in OW training that it is important upon ascent to signal you are having a health problem so that an instructor will act appropriately. As I said, it is very possible that an instructor will try to force an ascending, panicked student to stay down, as happened in an incident described in a recent thread.

That is what happened when my nephew's mother died during a training dive. She tried to ascend to the surface when she felt what turned out to be a heart attack, and the instructor did all he could to keep her at depth as she struggled to ascend.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I don't seem to have communicated effectively. I apologize for my poor writing skills.

I never advocated for a new signal. As I said several times in this thread, the existing signals work fine. What I called for is a simple reminder in OW training that it is important upon ascent to signal you are having a health problem so that an instructor will act appropriately. As I said, it is very possible that an instructor will try to force an ascending, panicked student to stay down, as happened in an incident described in a recent thread.

John,

I see that you are not the biggest fan. I am focusing on your arguments justifying it.

That is what happened when my nephew's mother died during a training dive. She tried to ascend to the surface when she felt what turned out to be a heart attack, and the instructor did all he could to keep her at depth as she struggled to ascend.

Maybe agencies need to include this in IDCs/ITCs and/or training bulletins, but keeping a student down shouldn't happen.

I'm perfectly willing to listen to scenarios where holding down a student is the correct thing to do. Just because I cannot think of a scenario, doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. I'm focused on recreational diving where the surface is always an option (except for boat traffic).

EDIT: so why am I so opposed to this? Well, as most of us agree, this new signal is redundant. The DAN article discusses using this signal from a wide range of issues of feeling ill to possibly something more serious/painful. Divers have been diving without this signal for decades. While PADI is the leading agency in terms of open water certifications, there are millions of previously certified divers. People have discussed newer divers teaching experienced ones or new divers from other agencies. But I refer everyone to the following diagram from The Learning Pyramid. Just because you've briefed someone about a new signal, I wouldn't count on them remembering that 30 minutes into the dive. I hope PADI withdraws this new signal and just keep using what has worked for decades.

 

[EFX]

I'm perfectly willing to listen to scenarios where holding down a student is the correct thing to do. Just because I cannot think of a scenario, doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. I'm focused on recreational diving where the surface is always an option (except for boat traffic).

One legitimate scenario is if a student starts drifting up because either they're too light or they haven't released enough air from their BCD. It certainly would help instructors and their DM's if they could know whether the ascent is an equipment, skill, or a health problem. The first two, warrants a grab and hold; the third, a continued ascent to the surface. Adding a signal may confuse a student who for some is already overwhelmed by the myriad skills and new environment. "Gee, do I use the traditional signal for trouble and the thumbs up or do I use the new signal", and "do I feel lousy because I'm ill or am I ill because I feel lousy?"

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

One legitimate scenario is if a student starts drifting up because either they're too light or they haven't released enough air from their BCD. It certainly would help instructors and their DM's if they could know whether the ascent is an equipment, skill, or a health problem. The first two, warrants a grab and hold; the third, a continued ascent to the surface. Adding a signal may confuse a student who for some is already overwhelmed by the myriad skills and new environment. "Gee, do I use the traditional signal for trouble and the thumbs up or do I use the new signal", and "do I feel lousy because I'm ill or am I ill because I feel lousy?"

The first two scenarios (equipment/skill). I don't expect students to be signaling in those scenarios. And when I was a sh!tty on-the-knees instructor teaching open water students in dry suits, I had a lot of students cork. No one ever signaled. They were perplexed as to why they "just went up." It was simply because I was a sh!tty on-the-knees instructor who was overweighting them by about 5 to 10 pounds and the extra gas they had to compensate that was too much for them to handle as they lacked the situational awareness (that we all lacked when we started) to their change in depth.

The instructor has to get the weighting sorted and ensure prior to the dive that everything is in good working order (as well as teach the students to check that). I also teach differenting and only two students at a time now. OW1 we are going down a line from my dive platform to a 44 lb anchor.

Maybe I haven't taught enough, but I haven't seen a piece of equipment failing during a dive. People like John who have more years of experience teaching than me can speak more authoritatively on that.

Regardless, if a student thumbs a dive, I don't care what the reason is, we are going up. Failure to do so would violate what I tell my students: every diver/student can thumb a dive at any time for any reason. This includes during training. What kind of message would I be giving my students if they thumbed a dive and I said no?

As soon as we break the surface, I'm asking them what is up. If they are in distress, I'm dumping gear and towing them in ASAP and calling shore for help if available. Even though my other student won't be rescue trained, they'll following my instructions: getting the O2 from my car, my phone, etc. If getting my keys is going to waste time, I'll tell the other student to break a window with a scuba cylinder. I don't want to face @Subfiend at the adjoining table.

 

[ChrisDee]

The following are examples from a popular 2021 Instruction manual. This is example of documenting what is taught and what not taught. There is difference between opinion, and syllubus. All have is syllubus. Opinion fine in many curcumstances, but still opinion is opinion. Have recived some "Private Messages," and many emails. Many indivuduals have pointed out from their recent courses, that hand signal's not being taught. Or if taught very small amount of time spent on all of them. Everyone agreed that "out of air" or low on air not an issue, <<<<< on surface, or when "instuctor" in front of face submerged. Everyone agree that student never taught what to do, if they have emergency underwater, or very minimal instruction. Emergency and how to "ask" for help underwater never covered. Point being students are NOT taught to ask for help or assistance underwater nor are they given opportunities or instruction on handeling emergincies underwater. From their personal perspective. all this talk is about instructors perspective, no one actually listining to students or getting feedback from students on what is effective way to handel emergencies. It if instructors talk, then Instuctor assumes student heard, when student's do NOT hear. But instuctor's keep speaking anyways.

IMO


"Train divers to minimize stress and anxiety and to avoid panic in
the water. Recognize outward signs of diver anxiety and panic
and stay focused so nothing distracts you from intervening with
a person who is stressed and anxious"

"7. Respond to air depletion by signaling “out of air”
and securing and breathing from an alternate air
source supplied by a buddy. Continue for at least
one minute while swimming, surface and inflate the
BCD orally."

"12. Recognize and demonstrate hand signals."

"Dive 1 Performance Requirements
At the surface:
1. During briefing, recognize the hand signals for “okay,”
“something is wrong,” “ear problem,” “low air,”
“up/end the dive,” “stay with your buddy,” and the
audible (or tactile) and visual signal for “look at me.”

"Exercise 4 — Distressed Diver Underwater
1. Correctly identify and respond to a diver simulating
overexertion underwater.
2. Correctly identify and respond to a panicked diver
making an uncontrolled ascent.
3. Correctly identify and provide air to, via an
alternate air source, a diver simulating an out of air
emergency, and make a controlled air-sharing ascent."

"Exercise 2: 15-minute Tread
Tread water, drown-proof, bob or float using no aids and
wearing only a swimsuit for 15 minutes, with hands (not
arms) out of the water during the last two minutes." (Other popular certifying agencies require 30 Min.)

"Supervision
Do not leave participants unattended, either at the
surface or underwater.
• Position yourself so that you or a certified assistant
can make immediate physical contact with, adjust
buoyancy for, and render assistance to, participants.
• Continually observe participants with only the brief,
periodic interruptions needed to lead the dive and to
provide assistance to individual divers.
• Do not engage in any other activities, such as
taking photographs or video, while supervising
participants."

"14. Communicate using hand signals at the surface and
underwater."

 

[boulderjohn]

The following are examples from a popular 2021 Instruction manual. This is example of documenting what is taught and what not taught. There is difference between opinion, and syllubus. All have is syllubus. Opinion fine in many curcumstances, but still opinion is opinion. Have recived some "Private Messages," and many emails. Many indivuduals have pointed out from their recent courses, that hand signal's not being taught. Or if taught very small amount of time spent on all of them. Everyone agreed that "out of air" or low on air not an issue, <<<<< on surface, or when "instuctor" in front of face submerged. Everyone agree that student never taught what to do, if they have emergency underwater, or very minimal instruction. Emergency and how to "ask" for help underwater never covered. Point being students are NOT taught to ask for help or assistance underwater nor are they given opportunities or instruction on handeling emergincies underwater. From their personal perspective. all this talk is about instructors perspective, no one actually listining to students or getting feedback from students on what is effective way to handel emergencies. It if instructors talk, then Instuctor assumes student heard, when student's do NOT hear. But instuctor's keep speaking anyways.

IMO


"Train divers to minimize stress and anxiety and to avoid panic in
the water. Recognize outward signs of diver anxiety and panic
and stay focused so nothing distracts you from intervening with
a person who is stressed and anxious"

"7. Respond to air depletion by signaling “out of air”
and securing and breathing from an alternate air
source supplied by a buddy. Continue for at least
one minute while swimming, surface and inflate the
BCD orally."

"12. Recognize and demonstrate hand signals."

"Dive 1 Performance Requirements
At the surface:
1. During briefing, recognize the hand signals for “okay,”
“something is wrong,” “ear problem,” “low air,”
“up/end the dive,” “stay with your buddy,” and the
audible (or tactile) and visual signal for “look at me.”

"Exercise 4 — Distressed Diver Underwater
1. Correctly identify and respond to a diver simulating
overexertion underwater.
2. Correctly identify and respond to a panicked diver
making an uncontrolled ascent.
3. Correctly identify and provide air to, via an
alternate air source, a diver simulating an out of air
emergency, and make a controlled air-sharing ascent."

"Exercise 2: 15-minute Tread
Tread water, drown-proof, bob or float using no aids and
wearing only a swimsuit for 15 minutes, with hands (not
arms) out of the water during the last two minutes." (Other popular certifying agencies require 30 Min.)

"Supervision
Do not leave participants unattended, either at the
surface or underwater.
• Position yourself so that you or a certified assistant
can make immediate physical contact with, adjust
buoyancy for, and render assistance to, participants.
• Continually observe participants with only the brief,
periodic interruptions needed to lead the dive and to
provide assistance to individual divers.
• Do not engage in any other activities, such as
taking photographs or video, while supervising
participants."

"14. Communicate using hand signals at the surface and
underwater."

You quote an instructor manual without naming it, so no one can verify it. (The 15 minutes of treading water with hands out of the water makes it clear that it is not a standard OW course.)

You cite private messages from individuals as proof of widespread failure to teach.

Do you have any other top secret, unverifiable proof?

 

[lowwall]

...Point being students are NOT taught to ask for help or assistance underwater nor are they given opportunities or instruction on handeling emergincies underwater. From their personal perspective. all this talk is about instructors perspective, no one actually listining to students or getting feedback from students on what is effective way to handel emergencies. It if instructors talk, then Instuctor assumes student heard, when student's do NOT hear. But instuctor's keep speaking anyways.

I'm trying to understand. Your original claim was that communication via have signals is not part of OW courses. Many of us responded with information showing that it is. To which you responded with downvotes or denials.

Now you've come back and quoted some un-named instructor course materials that agrees with what we've been telling you all along. Great, you've got it.

Except... Now you are claiming that there is some sort of industry-wide failure by instructors to actually teach this, even though it is part of the required curriculum?

This is an extraordinary claim given the documentation of skills completion that every instructor goes through with every student. Furthermore, it does not fit with my own experience. I'm not an instructor, but I've been through an OW class myself in 2000 and I've watched my wife (in Cozumel in 2003), my friend (in Phuket in 2018) and my son (in Florida in 2021) go through their OW classes and every one of us was taught basic hand signals and we used them underwater during training dives. Also, not one of the people responding on this thread experienced what you are claiming.

At this point, I can only conclude that you are extrapolating a problem that you presumably had during your OW training to everyone's OW training.

 

[boulderjohn]

The following are examples from a popular 2021 Instruction manual. This is example of documenting what is taught and what not taught. There is difference between opinion, and syllubus. All have is syllubus. Opinion fine in many curcumstances, but still opinion is opinion. Have recived some "Private Messages," and many emails. Many indivuduals have pointed out from their recent courses, that hand signal's not being taught. Or if taught very small amount of time spent on all of them. Everyone agreed that "out of air" or low on air not an issue, <<<<< on surface, or when "instuctor" in front of face submerged. Everyone agree that student never taught what to do, if they have emergency underwater, or very minimal instruction. Emergency and how to "ask" for help underwater never covered. Point being students are NOT taught to ask for help or assistance underwater nor are they given opportunities or instruction on handeling emergincies underwater. From their personal perspective. all this talk is about instructors perspective, no one actually listining to students or getting feedback from students on what is effective way to handel emergencies. It if instructors talk, then Instuctor assumes student heard, when student's do NOT hear. But instuctor's keep speaking anyways.

IMO


"Train divers to minimize stress and anxiety and to avoid panic in
the water. Recognize outward signs of diver anxiety and panic
and stay focused so nothing distracts you from intervening with
a person who is stressed and anxious"

"7. Respond to air depletion by signaling “out of air”
and securing and breathing from an alternate air
source supplied by a buddy. Continue for at least
one minute while swimming, surface and inflate the
BCD orally."

"12. Recognize and demonstrate hand signals."

"Dive 1 Performance Requirements
At the surface:
1. During briefing, recognize the hand signals for “okay,”
“something is wrong,” “ear problem,” “low air,”
“up/end the dive,” “stay with your buddy,” and the
audible (or tactile) and visual signal for “look at me.”

"Exercise 4 — Distressed Diver Underwater
1. Correctly identify and respond to a diver simulating
overexertion underwater.
2. Correctly identify and respond to a panicked diver
making an uncontrolled ascent.
3. Correctly identify and provide air to, via an
alternate air source, a diver simulating an out of air
emergency, and make a controlled air-sharing ascent."

"Exercise 2: 15-minute Tread
Tread water, drown-proof, bob or float using no aids and
wearing only a swimsuit for 15 minutes, with hands (not
arms) out of the water during the last two minutes." (Other popular certifying agencies require 30 Min.)

"Supervision
Do not leave participants unattended, either at the
surface or underwater.
• Position yourself so that you or a certified assistant
can make immediate physical contact with, adjust
buoyancy for, and render assistance to, participants.
• Continually observe participants with only the brief,
periodic interruptions needed to lead the dive and to
provide assistance to individual divers.
• Do not engage in any other activities, such as
taking photographs or video, while supervising
participants."

"14. Communicate using hand signals at the surface and
underwater."

So now you are saying that some secret private messages you received said that individuals did not believe they were properly instructed by their individual instructors who did not follow standards. I'm sure that is true in many cases. In the History of NAUI co-written by founder AL Tillman, he admits they had a problem from the start with students getting certified without meeting course standards, some without even taking the course. But that is not what you have been saying in the thread. You have been talking about a failure of course materials to teach the concepts, not a failure of individual instructors to teach the required materials.

As for the "Popular 2021 Diving Manual," it took me a while to find it, but you inaccurately tried to pass off NOAA scientific diving standards as OW standards in a thread about a month ago. Here is roughly where it started. It took a few pages for people to unravel the truth. Once we realized how thoroughly you had been trying to deceive everyone, I gave the advice on the last page of that thread. I think it is worth repeating.

Once you develop a reputation for intentionally using misinformation to support an opinion, it will become increasingly difficult to persuade others.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You quote an instructor manual without naming it, so no one can verify it. (The 15 minutes of treading water with hands out of the water makes it clear that it is not a standard OW course.)

You cite private messages from individuals as proof of widespread failure to teach.

Do you have any other top secret, unverifiable proof?

I believe this is the DM float test with hands out of the water for the last two minutes.

This is dramatically different than previous claims. Screen shot from the PADI IM 2017.

I don't know from what agency DM program he cut and pasted that text.

 

[BlueTrin]

If someone made the circular signal, I’d think he’s hungry.

Can see some potential here:

• *hungry* -> *thumbs up*: let’s go and eat
• *point at lionfish/scallops* -> *hungry* let catch some food