Not allowed on a boat because of your dive agency card?

[Thalassamania]

As the person who used the term "Master Diver" when I wrote NAUI's standards I need to make several points:
I had named the course, "Master Sports Diver," in deference to the Master Divers (USN) that I knew.

1. I developed the NAUI Master Diver program under contract from NAUI. It was intended to provide all the diving skills and knowledge that were expected (back then) of a NAUI Instructor except for the NAUI administrative details and the teaching theory stuff. The idea was that a NAUI Master Diver could become a NAUI Instructor by just adding those two modules. The NAUI Master Sports Diver program was specifically designed to exceed the CMAS Three Star standard.
2. PADI went and used almost all the NAUI terms, one course down in the their sequence, e.g., PADI's "Advanced Open Water" was roughly the same as NAUI's Sport Diver (OW II).
3. PADI's Master Diver was always just a vanity card.
4. A few years ago NAUI did the same thing as PADI, applying the Master Diver name to the the Advanced Diver Standard that I had previously developed.

 

[Jill from Phoenix]

As the person who used the term "Master Diver" when I wrote NAUI's standards I need to make several points:
I had named the course, "Master Sports Diver," in deference to the Master Divers (USN) that I knew.

1. I developed the NAUI Master Diver program under contract from NAUI. It was intended to provide all the diving skills and knowledge that were expected (back then) of a NAUI Instructor except for the NAUI administrative details and the teaching theory stuff. The idea was that a NAUI Master Diver could become a NAUI Instructor by just adding those two modules. The NAUI Master Sports Diver program was specifically designed to exceed the CMAS Three Star standard.
2. PADI went and used almost all the NAUI terms, one course down in the their sequence, e.g., PADI's "Advanced Open Water" was roughly the same as NAUI's Sport Diver (OW II).
3. PADI's Master Diver was always just a vanity card.
4. A few years ago NAUI did the same thing as PADI, applying the Master Diver name to the the Advanced Diver Standard that I had previously developed.

Thal:

Ok, I understand that OW1= SD, OW2=Adv, Adv=Master
But I'm not understanding what was taken out of the present Master class, that would 'downgrade' it from past programs.
If it presently has all our highest dive theory/academics, what's missing in today's NAUI Master Diver?

 

[The Chairman]

what's missing in today's NAUI Master Diver?

All that macho Navy Demolition Diver crap.

The shift has been from a program that was highly influenced by the military to one that is geared towards having more fun. They often refer to it as "dumbing down" while I refer to it as "funning up".

 

[Akimbo]

Thal, maybe you can expound on this. I understand that Bret Gilliam refused to use the term “Master” in any of the certifications when he controlled TDI — for the same reasons of deference you expressed. After he sold, SDI/TDI/et al they were functionally required to adopt the term in their certifications for some kind of inter-agency acceptance. I don’t recall the organization but does CMAS coordinate such things? If not them, is there a governing or advisory body that would?

FYI, for others: CMAS, formally Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques also known as “The World Underwater Federation”.

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal:

Ok, I understand that OW1= SD, OW2=Adv, Adv=Master
But I'm not understanding what was taken out of the present Master class, that would 'downgrade' it from past programs.
If it presently has all our highest dive theory/academics, what's missing in today's NAUI Master Diver?

The number of dives was, I believe, reduced, as were skill performance objectives. The written exams ... which used to be identical to the NAUI Instructor exams, were revised and the Prep Course that was the bridge from Master Diver to Instructor was scrapped.

All that macho Navy Demolition Diver crap.

The shift has been from a program that was highly influenced by the military to one that is geared towards having more fun. They often refer to it as "dumbing down" while I refer to it as "funning up".

There never was ANY influence from the military on the Master Diver Course or it's standards. I was never in the military, neither were any of the people whom I learned from, in fact, we had rejected all harassment drills and such decades before NetDoc started diving. So ... with all due respect, there never was any macho Navy Demolition Diver crap in the Master Diver course, not from day one. If you observed such it was added to the curriculum by instructors who did not know how to use the curriculum, with was sufficiently challenging all on its own. I would appreciate your identifying FROM THE STANDARDS any items that featured such, "macho Navy Demolition Diver crap."

Thal, maybe you can expound on this. I understand that Bret Gilliam refused to use the term “Master” in any of the certifications when he controlled TDI — for the same reasons of deference you expressed. After he sold, SDI/TDI/et al they were functionally required to adopt the term in their certifications for some kind of inter-agency acceptance. I don’t recall the organization but does CMAS coordinate such things? If not them, is there a governing or advisory body that would?

FYI, for others: CMAS, formally Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques also known as “The World Underwater Federation”.

I have never been able to decipher what was going on in Bret's brain, so I'll not try now at the this great distance. I suspect that "X"DI, which started off as a NITROX and then Technical only agency wanted to have something to be the analog of the CMAS Three Star ... ask DOPPLER, he should know. CMAS does not require that such a thing exist, but I'm sure the folks at "X"DI felt that they were not competitive without it.

 

[Akimbo]

All that macho Navy Demolition Diver crap.

The shift has been from a program that was highly influenced by the military to one that is geared towards having more fun. They often refer to it as "dumbing down" while I refer to it as "funning up".

Anytime a course of any kind is developed there is a dumbing down relative to those who innovated, pioneered, and/or cobbled diverse information sources together. That can be a great thing and I absolutely benefitted from it throughout my life. It is a good thing that first grade arithmetic classes are dumbed-down or even the future Einsteins wouldn’t see second grade.

The place where funning-up and dumbing-down collide is when the same simplifications that are essential in first grade prevail through calculus. I have seen diving students told “never stop breathing” in order to forgo decidedly un-fun aspects of barotrauma. I appreciate that telling diving students that “holding their breath on ascent will cause their lungs to explode in their chest and you will die a horrible death” is bad for business. Unfortunately, the rule of “never stop breathing” seems easily forgotten in minor emergencies.

A similar collision occurs in the compromise between swimming tests suitable for BUD/S (Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL) training and no swim test at all. After all, anyone with functioning limbs can swim with fins. The problem is fins make many functional non-swimmers deathly afraid of a loose fin strap and they enter the water primed for panic, as-in half their brain left onshore.

I didn’t go through harassment dives in my initial Scuba training, but was a much better diver after them in Navy Scuba school (also nothing like BUD/S). I am not suggesting incorporating them into recreational training but I believe that funning-up has gone too far resulting in divers that are fundamentally uncomfortable and leave the sport. I increasingly believe that the industry would be better off making the basic diving course include Open Water, Deep Water, and Nitrox; partly for the depth of knowledge and partly for the time in and out of the water for a lot of important stuff to sink in.

I believe the industry needs lessons for dive shops on selling a more expensive diving course rather than depend on sales gimmicks more akin to drug dealers. Every instructor I have ever met would be much happier if they did. Another missing piece is well produced training videos that make a lot of boring and dry crap interesting and memorable. Not just "talking heads" with a few primitive illustrations and props.

 

[Gilldiver]

No joke! The closest equivalent to a 1970 YMCA Scuba Diver card from PADI would be Master Diver with a little mild deco thrown in.
Rick

When I got that card in 1979 we had to show that we could work the US Navy air tables (all we had both for tables and gas) quickly and accurately. This included working the DECO tables as we were prepared for what-if's. We were also run through where the tables were known to be most critical and how to pad them to the next depth and time especially in the bends depth range of 60 to 90 feet. This is the depth range where most divers get into trouble and where going past your NDL has the most impact to the deco schedules. A little shallower or deeper and 2 to 3 minutes extra just don't impact you as greatly.

 

[The Chairman]

Anytime a course of any kind is developed there is a dumbing down relative to those who innovated, pioneered, and/or cobbled diverse information sources together.

Nothing causes myopia quite like nostalgia. It allows the self indulgent to participate in the worst kind of bathos imaginable. Progress is then perceived as some sort of regression rather than appreciated for its quiet efficiency that comes from a relentless evolution. Rather than pontificate long and hard about how things were somehow "better" in the old days, just show us how you teach NOW. If we like what we see, we'll emulate it. There is no need to denigrate the new methodologies. We get that you don't understand or appreciate the need for change, but we don't understand the need to incessantly remind us just how superior you think you are. [/rant]

I believe the industry needs lessons for dive shops on selling a more expensive diving course rather than depend on sales gimmicks more akin to drug dealers. Every instructor I have ever met would be much happier if they did. Another missing piece is well produced training videos that make a lot of boring and dry crap interesting and memorable. Not just "talking heads" with a few primitive illustrations and props.

I'll be giving three presentations through Aqua Lung on how to do this utilizing social media. "Social Media and Your Business", "Social Media and Efficiency" and "Social Media: Turning Lemons into Lemonade". [/shameless self promotion] Well produced and marketed FREE videos can go a long way to improving a business' bottom line.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Nothing causes myopia quite like nostalgia. It allows the self indulgent to participate in the worst kind of bathos imaginable. Progress is then perceived as some sort of regression rather than appreciated for its quiet efficiency that comes from a relentless evolution. Rather than pontificate long and hard about how things were somehow "better" in the old days, just show us how you teach NOW. If we like what we see, we'll emulate it. There is no need to denigrate the new methodologies. We get that you don't understand or appreciate the need for change, but we don't understand the need to incessantly remind us just how superior you think you are. [/rant]

Can't say that I read that into anything Akimbo said ... an my radar's usually pretty sensitive to nostalgia tripping. In fact, I think he made some pretty interesting points ... some of which I agree with. Where we run into problems (as usual) is in generalizations that don't necessarily apply to all programs or those who teach them. But let's be honest, Pete ... a great many people who pass their OW class and receive C-cards are obviously frightened in the water ... and frightened people aren't having fun. I think one of the most significant reasons why so many people drop out of scuba so soon after getting certified is because they are only taught enough to scare the crap out of themselves ... and when they do, they decide to use their discretionary dollars and precious vacation days doing something else.

Students are all individuals, who each learn at their own pace. I commonly have students who need more than the prescribed dives in order to learn how to become comfortable in the water. I don't see that as a failure on my part or theirs ... I see it simply as a need based on how they learn, and what preconditions they need to overcome in order to adapt to an environment none of us were ever designed for.

Fun comes when you're comfortable doing something. I think the successful instructor factors the evaluation of diver comfort into the successful completion of the class objectives. And that is, I think, the concept that Akimbo was trying to convey.

If so, then I agree with him.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

I was actually AGREEING with his assessment and amplifying it, Bob. People who give birth to a concept, ideology, idea, product, certification or the like are often blinded to its actual shortcomings due to nostalgia induced myopia. As an instructor, I have turned out a few "frightened" students, and it caused me to rethink and reevaluate how I taught. In fact, I make a point to evaluate all of my classes based on the final product. There are a few things that I see as completely outdated like requiring snorkels on an OW student. I have streamlined my course to accentuate the core skills that I see are needed for my students to be comfortable and safe in the water while having the maximum amount of fun. Rather than treating any skill or methodology as a sacred cow I view each with a critical eye to see if it promotes fun, comfort and safety.