Nord Stream Pipeline Video

[tarponchik]

So again - the objective of getting Germany off the Russian gas pipe was already being accomplished via trade and diplomatic means. So why take the risk of blowing the pipelines in a way that was guaranteed to attract attention and close inspection, and would have required bringing in outside assets to a navigationally restricted and confined area?

Because this way there won't be any Russian gas coming back to Germany. Killing hope! All wars end eventually and this war will end too, this way or the other. And the end of the war will bring the question of Russian gas running back to Germany again. Now, without the cheap Russian gas, Germany (and hence the EU) is eliminated as an economic competitor to the USA. Germany is buying a stairway to heaven the expensive American gas now and German companies move to the US in scores, as result. And those political forces in Germany who may argue that "we need cheap Russian gas, not the expensive American gas" lost their ground.

There also may be another motivation, to give Russia a sucker punch just for the heck of demonstrating US strength and resolution to East Europeans. Remember who wrote the "thank you!" tweet after the sabotage?

 

[HalcyonDaze]

Hersh's article does not mention any minesweepers. He also states that "Denmark and Sweden had to be briefed in general terms about possible diving activity in the area", not that Danish and Swedish officials were notified of the goals of the operation.

It is a good habit to actually read the articles you criticize.

"That would be well within the range of the divers, who, operating from a Norwegian Alta class mine hunter, would dive with a mixture of oxygen, nitrogen and helium streaming from their tanks, and plant shaped C4 charges on the four pipelines with concrete protective covers."

"The Norwegians joined the Americans in insisting that some senior officials in Denmark and Sweden had to be briefed in general terms about possible diving activity in the area. In that way, someone higher up could intervene and keep a report out of the chain of command, thus insulating the pipeline operation. 'What they were told and what they knew were purposely different,' the source told me."

On the latter point - Swedish and Danish officials are told about diving activity in the area, with the implication that whatever they were told included keeping reports of it "out of the chain of command." People have brains and put things together; if someone tells you "hey, I'm going to be digging in your backyard, but don't worry about it and don't tell the cops" and then a few months later something explodes back there, you may start to wonder. Both countries also sent assets to examine the pipeline damage after the explosions; unless you made really sure that nothing incriminating was left behind the person looking at that debris had better be read in on it. Guess Hersh forgot to add that they cunningly labeled all the charges in Cyrillic then and used Russian-made explosives ...

While I'll ignore the argumentum ad hominem you made, here are a couple of my objections to you:
1. Dragging the feet with the turbine replacement may be a temporary excuse not to supply the gas. However, blowing the pipe up killed it once and for all. It would seem logical to me to do one or another, but not both. You seem to ignore the fact that both the USA and Norway were the major beneficiaries of NS sabotage and both Russia and Germany were the losers.
2. Who said that the signal was sent "miles away"?

On the first point, I'll direct you to my previous post - you know, the one with a video link, recap, and direct quote from three weeks before the pipeline explosion assessing Russia's best interests were for gas supply through Nord Stream to go to zero. The "beneficiaries" you mention were already winning; turns out when your business strategy is to threaten to cut your customers off they go somewhere else.

As far as the signal - they chucked a buoy out of a converted 737 (which is what a P-8 is); I'm sure that sucker landed plum on the pipe ... well, pipes, which were several miles apart. That is, if there was a P-8 there, which according to ADS-B data there wasn't until 90 minutes after the first explosion (and it wasn't a Norwegian P-8).

 

[admikar]

While I'll ignore the argumentum ad hominem you made, here are a couple of my objections to you:
1. Dragging the feet with the turbine replacement may be a temporary excuse not to supply the gas. However, blowing the pipe up killed it once and for all. It would seem logical to me to do one or another, but not both. You seem to ignore the fact that both the USA and Norway were the major beneficiaries of NS sabotage and both Russia and Germany were the losers.
2. Who said that the signal was sent "miles away"?

I am still waiting on credible explanation of why Russians would blow their own pipeline, other than "because they are Russians".

OTH, that article does not pass smell test.

 

[tarponchik]

I am still waiting on credible explanation of why Russians would blow their own pipeline, other than "because they are Russians".

OTH, that article does not pass smell test.

You guys are like lemmings at the cliff.

 

[admikar]

You guys are like lemmings at the cliff.

I think you got me wrong. I concur with you that it doesn't make sense for Russians to blow their own pipeline.

 

[SlugLife]

Is S.H's article accurate? I don't have access to his sources.

If the article is made up, it does a good job drawing inspiration from reality. Motive, means, opportunity, a practical way of pulling it off, and many of the same players who've made public "wink-wink, nod-nod" statements about putting and end to the pipeline.
It's possible SH is a very creative writer and made the whole thing up. It's also possible there was a a CIA op to effectively "sell" this story to SH, in order to throw people off the real trail of whoever actually did it, or how it was done.

But I haven't seen anything yet to convince me that we can know the SH article is actually false. Instead, I mostly see people talking as if it's impossible that the US could have possibly had anything to do with it!

 

[tarponchik]

I think you got me wrong. I concur with you that it doesn't make sense for Russians to blow their own pipeline.

Sorry, got it the other way.

 

[tarponchik]

As far as the signal - they chucked a buoy out of a converted 737 (which is what a P-8 is); I'm sure that sucker landed plum on the pipe ... well, pipes, which were several miles apart. That is, if there was a P-8 there, which according to ADS-B data there wasn't until 90 minutes after the first explosion (and it wasn't a Norwegian P-8).

These are technicalities easy to explain. The P-8's transponder could have been be turned off; there could have been 2 buoys; or the the receiver could be located on a cable in between. The so-called "investigation" was, of course, a clean up.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

Because this way there won't be any Russian gas coming back to Germany. Killing hope! All wars end eventually and this war will end too, this way or the other. And the end of the war will bring the question of Russian gas running back to Germany again. Now, without the cheap Russian gas, Germany (and hence the EU) is eliminated as an economic competitor to the USA. Germany is buying a stairway to heaven the expensive American gas now and German companies move to the US in scores, as result. And those political forces in Germany who may argue that "we need cheap Russian gas, not the expensive American gas" lost their ground.

There also may be another motivation, to give Russia a sucker punch just for the heck of demonstrating US strength and resolution to East Europeans. Remember who wrote the "thank you!" tweet after the sabotage?

"Some managers made significant profits from rocketing European gas prices after Russia began squeezing supplies to Europe in 2021 before slashing exports after its full-scale invasion of Ukraine last February."

Putin has ‘lost the energy war’, top trader claims as he ends bets on high gas price

Pierre Andurand says Europe has weaned itself off Russian natural gas and is unlikely to return to it

www.ft.com

Note when prices started climbing and that they are now back to pre-2022 levels. European customers had become acutely aware that Russian gas prices and deliveries were entirely dependent on the whims of the Kremlin. Heck, in the summer of 2022 the freaking Green Party in Germany was backing increases in coal and nuclear power production as an alternative to Russian gas.

These are technicalities easy to explain. The P-8's transponder could have been be turned off; there could have been 2 buoys; or the the receiver could be located on a cable in between. The so-called "investigation" was, of course, a clean up.

ADS-B data addressed here:


Remember, according to Hersh's "source" these were disguised as "routine" activities. Shutting off ship and aircraft transponders is not routine; there are plenty of other sensors (up to and including satellites) which could pick a ship or aircraft up and a target that is not "sqawking" may be subject to closer inspection.

Added rebuttals: Plukker Nord Stream-rapporten fra hverandre: – Latterlig

 

[CT-Rich]

I am not 100% up on the recent stuff, and I have not read the entire thread, but Russia was blowing up pipelines to Georgia back in 2006. It may be that the Russian were trying to freeze the German out of the war. Russians, to my understanding have been running under the assumption that Western countries would cave to public pressure to not get involved. After watching Trump getting pushed cutting and running in Syria and Afghanistan (not to mention their invasions & asssassinations in the former republics), they may have expected to have a half hearted set of sanctions imposed by the West, bulldoze Ukraine and be back to business. Cutting off the flow of gas and making the Germans freeze for the winter, in the minds of the Russians, might prevent Germany from giving full support to sending arm to Ukraine. No one can send Leopard tanks to Ukraine without the Germans giving the thumbs up. Germany is central to NATO and miserable and cold Germans could split the West. Russia has always had a habit of misreading the West. After watching four years of Nato being undermined, I could see Putin betting that turning off the gas to European civilians would weaken resolve. He has been using a similar strategy of destroying civilian infrastructure on the ground in Ukraine.