Non GUE DIR

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Hank49:
From what I gather it's all tied together, You need to take (and pay for) the DIRf course in order to progress on to advanced GUE training. Correct? Judging from the many negative responses to DIR on SB, they've turned away potential DIRf customers, due to....arrogance? over confidence? I can't put my finger on it. And as pointed out by pro DIR people, the perception of it is wrong and misunderstood by most who have a negative view. Perhaps this is true but it IS the perception. How did this come to be? And is this what the DIR instructors want? It's not a normal business development plan to piss off a percentage of the market from the get go. DIR may be a way of diving but they do sell it in the form of the DIRf course.

I haven't followed the entirety of this thread so excuse me if some of this post is redundant. I hear these points raised often, and while for certain, some of the wounds are self-inflicted, I also believe that there is a perception out there that is misunderstood, and it could be argued that such a misunderstanding is largely responsible for the impression of arrogance or elitist.

Much of the dive industry is focused on pandering and catering to a shrinking market share, and as a result there is a strong willingness to compromise, lower and expand core ideological values in favor of increasing market share. GUE, and by extension, it's instructor base aren't interested in sacraficing, compromising or lowering any of our core ideological principles simply to get more students. If that means we teach less students, or if that means that we come off as arrogant or elitists, then so be it. There are two prisms with which some can view this issue(s). One can consider that our goal is to set the standard high enough for serious divers that desire more challenging training curriculums and consider that we aren't interested in convincing anyone that they need our training. This concept does stand in stark contrast to the exsisting business model of the dive industry which is; to grow, expand and be "inclusive" at nearly any cost. One must consider that if our goal is to offer an alternative to exsisting dive industry models, then by definition we need to be different. Speaking for myself only, and not for GUE as an organization taken as a whole, I prefer teaching to students that have taken the time to learn about GUE/DIR and/or have become frustrated with what has been offered heretofore prior to GUE's formation. I find that students of that mindset don't need to be "convinced" that GUE training is for them. All too often, students feel the need to be coddled, positively reinforced or some other such sales technique.

If it offends people that we don't do that type of sales pitch then, candidly speaking, there isn't much we can do about. In our mission statement we pointedly identitfy the kind of diver that will benefit from our training. It's called the "discriminating" diver, another way to describe that diver is someone who is looking to be challenged and someone that doesn't need to be convinced that what we offer is what they are looking for. I fully recognize that concept is vastly different from anything else in the dive industry, and I fully concede that if our goal was just simply to be another organizational alphabet then our approach would be less then optimal. However, JJ is steadfast in his reluctance to expand at a rate that is inconsistent with our core tennants, and he is steadfast in his commitment to remain small and elite. Frankly, many of the problems you see in the other agencies are a direct result of growth and a direct result of being to "inclusive", at the expense of sacraficing adherence to rigid protocols..

I hope that helps is addressing the percieved "misunderstandings".

Regards,
 
I originaly posted something but decided it wasn't particularly appropriate. Self censorship at its best. :D
 
SeanQ:
I originaly posted something but decided it wasn't particularly appropriate. Self censorship at its best. :D

You should post it and let the (TOS compliant) flames decide if it is appropriate...
 
MHK:
I haven't followed the entirety of this thread so excuse me if some of this post is redundant. I hear these points raised often, and while for certain, some of the wounds are self-inflicted, I also believe that there is a perception out there that is misunderstood, and it could be argued that such a misunderstanding is largely responsible for the impression of arrogance or elitist.

Much of the dive industry is focused on pandering and catering to a shrinking market share, and as a result there is a strong willingness to compromise, lower and expand core ideological values in favor of increasing market share. GUE, and by extension, it's instructor base aren't interested in sacraficing, compromising or lowering any of our core ideological principles simply to get more students. If that means we teach less students, or if that means that we come off as arrogant or elitists, then so be it. There are two prisms with which some can view this issue(s). One can consider that our goal is to set the standard high enough for serious divers that desire more challenging training curriculums and consider that we aren't interested in convincing anyone that they need our training. This concept does stand in stark contrast to the exsisting business model of the dive industry which is; to grow, expand and be "inclusive" at nearly any cost. One must consider that if our goal is to offer an alternative to exsisting dive industry models, then by definition we need to be different. Speaking for myself only, and not for GUE as an organization taken as a whole, I prefer teaching to students that have taken the time to learn about GUE/DIR and/or have become frustrated with what has been offered heretofore prior to GUE's formation. I find that students of that mindset don't need to be "convinced" that GUE training is for them. All too often, students feel the need to be coddled, positively reinforced or some other such sales technique.

If it offends people that we don't do that type of sales pitch then, candidly speaking, there isn't much we can do about. In our mission statement we pointedly identitfy the kind of diver that will benefit from our training. It's called the "discriminating" diver, another way to describe that diver is someone who is looking to be challenged and someone that doesn't need to be convinced that what we offer is what they are looking for. I fully recognize that concept is vastly different from anything else in the dive industry, and I fully concede that if our goal was just simply to be another organizational alphabet then our approach would be less then optimal. However, JJ is steadfast in his reluctance to expand at a rate that is inconsistent with our core tennants, and he is steadfast in his commitment to remain small and elite. Frankly, many of the problems you see in the other agencies are a direct result of growth and a direct result of being to "inclusive", at the expense of sacraficing adherence to rigid protocols..

I hope that helps is addressing the percieved "misunderstandings".

Regards,

Mike,
Yes it all can be unfortunately misconstrued as elitism. . .
IMHO, in a nutshell, it can be all explained using this analogy: NAUI, PADI et al are your Small Undergrad Jr. Colleges while GUE is the Graduate/Post-Grad. Professional University --in other words, you've got to matriculate through the System in order to attain greater Knowledge, Wisdom, Skill and Practice. . . The tough part is trying to find Mentors and Classmates at "Undergrad" Levels who share the same DIR Philosophy & Practice.
Sincerely,
Kevin.
 
Sheesh you guys, it isn't that big a deal. The Fundamentals class is about 350.00. Mine consisted of 3, 12 hour days. They teach you the basics of "advanced diving". It is hard as heck, but you learn a lot. DIR, solo, hogarthian, whatever you will benefit from the course as long as you go in with an open mind.

My AOW class was about 200 bucks, plus 100 or so for the boat dives (with tip). It consisted of 2, 2 hour class sessions and 6 dives at one of the local dive sites. Fairly useless even for a diver with like 20 dives under their belt.

I had my wife take Fundamentals (from Delia) in Jan '05. She was certified in Dec '04. She had about 20 dives when she took it. She had a difficult time, but really enjoyed the class and commented numerous times that it was "what OW should be".

If you are dive a lot, take the Fundamentals class. If you dive every now and again, well, it may not be for you. The stuff they teach takes a lot of time and effort to do, and isn't for everyone. It took my wife diving every other week right about 6 months to get her checkoff.

As a group, we have a lot of fun, but I've been out with recreational groups that were a blast too though,they did things like having little sponge bob things clipped to their BC's and goofing around with them during their safety stop. Though I didn't join in (RTodd, where IS the proper place to clip off your Sponge Bob toy????), it was a very fun dive.

It is important to realize that different people have different goals. For some of us, it is trying to improve what we do and constantly striving to be better, not for ego reasons, but to be safe, have fun, and have better control of ourselves underwater. We are drawn to the system because it promotes that and helps us acheive our goals. We study, and practice, much like an amateur sports team. As a result we tend to be a tight knit group and stick together we then sometimes seem a bit standoffish. I promise you, if you go up to a DIR diver and ask them about their gear and what they do, 99% of the time you will get a nice, friendly answer, especially in my neck of the woods where all the DIR divers I know are the friendliest folks (in person).

For some people, the objective is to get in the water, jet around a bit, check it out and grab a beer afterwards. Sweet, I'm certain they have at least as much fun as I do, they just have different objectives. As a matter of fact, some of my friends are just like that (and I will sometimes have a beer with them and dive with them). Nothing wrong with that either.

Mark
 
mweitz:
Sheesh you guys, it isn't that big a deal. The Fundamentals class is about 350.00. Mine consisted of 3, 12 hour days. They teach you the basics of "advanced diving". It is hard as heck, but you learn a lot. DIR, solo, hogarthian, whatever you will benefit from the course as long as you go in with an open mind.

My AOW class was about 200 bucks, plus 100 or so for the boat dives (with tip). It consisted of 2, 2 hour class sessions and 6 dives at one of the local dive sites. Fairly useless even for a diver with like 20 dives under their belt.

I had my wife take Fundamentals (from Delia) in Jan '05. She was certified in Dec '04. She had about 20 dives when she took it. She had a difficult time, but really enjoyed the class and commented numerous times that it was "what OW should be".

If you are dive a lot, take the Fundamentals class. If you dive every now and again, well, it may not be for you. The stuff they teach takes a lot of time and effort to do, and isn't for everyone. It took my wife diving every other week right about 6 months to get her checkoff.

As a group, we have a lot of fun, but I've been out with recreational groups that were a blast too though,they did things like having little sponge bob things clipped to their BC's and goofing around with them during their safety stop. Though I didn't join in (RTodd, where IS the proper place to clip off your Sponge Bob toy????), it was a very fun dive.

It is important to realize that different people have different goals. For some of us, it is trying to improve what we do and constantly striving to be better, not for ego reasons, but to be safe, have fun, and have better control of ourselves underwater. We are drawn to the system because it promotes that and helps us acheive our goals. We study, and practice, much like an amateur sports team. As a result we tend to be a tight knit group and stick together we then sometimes seem a bit standoffish. I promise you, if you go up to a DIR diver and ask them about their gear and what they do, 99% of the time you will get a nice, friendly answer, especially in my neck of the woods where all the DIR divers I know are the friendliest folks (in person).

For some people, the objective is to get in the water, jet around a bit, check it out and grab a beer afterwards. Sweet, I'm certain they have at least as much fun as I do, they just have different objectives. As a matter of fact, some of my friends are just like that (and I will sometimes have a beer with them and dive with them). Nothing wrong with that either.

Mark

Well said Mark. :)
 
mweitz:
As a result we tend to be a tight knit group and stick together we then sometimes seem a bit standoffish. I promise you, if you go up to a DIR diver and ask them about their gear and what they do, 99% of the time you will get a nice, friendly answer, especially in my neck of the woods where all the DIR divers I know are the friendliest folks (in person).

Mark

And if you show an interest in DIR there is a kind of informal mentorship between the guys here in the bay area to help one another along. Be it gear, practice sessions or just experience dives.

As far as the DIR-F costs if you break it down to the per hour attention you get from the instructor in and out of the water it's well worth it bypassing AOW for DIR-F IMHO


Full disclosure:
I've dove with scott, mark, chris, jason, josh and brian but have not recieved any compensation of any shape or form :)
 
OK, OK, I'll buy you a beer for God's sake!

Mark

Ben_ca:
And if you show an interest in DIR there is a kind of informal mentorship between the guys here in the bay area to help one another along. Be it gear, practice sessions or just experience dives.

As far as the DIR-F costs if you break it down to the per hour attention you get from the instructor in and out of the water it's well worth it bypassing AOW for DIR-F IMHO


Full disclosure:
I've dove with scott, mark, chris, jason, josh and brian but have not recieved any compensation of any shape or form :)
 
mweitz:
OK, OK, I'll buy you a beer for God's sake!

Mark
Will that make me your "employee"? :1poke:

:lol:
 
Only if you are going to be on the X-Bud team :wink:

Ben_ca:
Will that make me your "employee"? :1poke:

:lol:
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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