Non GUE DIR

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mweitz:
24 / 7 my friend. 24 / 7.

That's not going to work. I'll never be able to keep up with that schedule. Would someone be willing to take my shift on Tuesday and Thursday? I'll need some time to think up new ways to make fun of Mark's purple dry gloves while secretly wanting a pair.

Blue gloves are so 2004.

~ Jason
 
SeanQ:
In a hypothetical situation, image GUE defined one method, and only method as DIR; meanwhile, another organization, such as NAUI for example, may consider two methods as perfectly acceptable as DIR. In other words, GUE divers would only accept one way as DIR while NAUI divers could accept either method as DIR.

Now imagine a group of both GUE and NAUI DIR divers intermingling(!) together on a dive trip. Let's use deco planning as an example for the DIR accepted method(s). Divers from both organization consider their own deco as DIR, however, as a group they would not be DIR because they have different deco schedules and are not standardized.

Am I on the right track or am I way off base?

Since no one is still reading this I will go ahead and chime in. While I can be a real %$@!* about the very technical details of DIR, I don't care about the number of cards you have in your wallet or what agency they are from. I personally do not have a single GUE card. Everyone getting up in a twist about is this agency's DIR the one or not is missing the point about what DIR is to an extent.

I am not a huge fan of how GUE is run on an administrative level. However, most aspects of the dive industry are not run very well IMHO. My expecations on this are probably a bit high though since most of the companies I deal with daily have a few more zeroes in their revenue lines than the entire dive industry combined.

Having said that, GUE's philosphy and how they enforce their standards makes the other training agencies look foolish. Because of this style, GUE will, hopefully, always remain very small. That is why a lot of people ascribe so much faith in some one certified by GUE. Personally, I can do the same thing with a five minute casual conversation and a glance at their gear configuration. However, knowing someone is GUE trained can be very helpful to those newer to the sport. A NAUI card will never have this appeal. If you are in the know about the industry, knowing someone has an AG card will cover the same base. But, this is a difference.

AG and I am sure some other non-GUE instructors out there teach very good classes and give students a strong foundation to grow on. AG, and I suspect the others too, does tend to slightly diverge from the very fine details of what DIR is. In some cases, these may be improvements. In others, they aren't. In some environments, it does not seem like, and isn't, a big deal. (Still does matter, just very, very little.) But, as the scope of the dive and the severity of the environment goes up, these very minor details start to matter more. Case in point, I had a stainless clip jam on a HP hose and simply used a double ender to clip off for a recreational dive in Caymans last week. Would I do that on a cave exploration dive with a bunch of stages hanging off the left hip ring. No, I would fix it before the dive.

There is a true every single detail DIR and there is what most people do which is gets close enough for the dives they are doing. Either because they don't know the fine points or mistakenly think their way is better or just don't want to bother. GUE properly empasises the every single detail approach. No other agency does and I doubt they ever will. Does that matter for picking your buddy for an open water dive that has the core DIR principles down - No. Will it affect your development if you are one of the very few people whose diving progresses to the sharp end of this sport and you don't covert to the little details - yes.

Diving has more factions than a PLO meeting. This problem is unfortunately here to stay. There are a lot of people in the indsutry that have an agenda against DIR, and GUE in particular. GUE will always face political garbage like this. Most of this stems from how little money there is in the dive industry pie chart and everyone wanting the biggest piece they can grab.

DIR as a concept has no agenda other than to develop the safest way of doing dives. This concept has enormous utility in all diving but particularly on the extreme spectrum. Since most divers aren't out there this far, many have a hard time realizing the full value of all the fine details of DIR. GUE attempts to convey this as an agency. But, there will never be more than a limited number of people that aspire to that. If other agencies at least improve their curriculum some, that is a positive. But, the other agencies aren't equipped to deliver what the DIR concept strives to be.
 
RTodd:
Since no one is still reading this I will go ahead and chime in. DIR as a concept has no agenda other than to develop the safest way of doing dives.

This would be a very noble gesture but I don't believe it. All training agencies are into making money. They've invested into advertising, training staff etc etc and expect a return on investment. I do agree with the concept of DIR but as was mentioned earlier in this thread, somehow the name DIR or how they present themselves turns a lot of people off....myself included somewhat...even though I DO AGREE in concept. And somehow it almost seems, in the defensiveness of DIRer's replies to questions, that there is resentment that the common diving public just can't grasp that they are better. Whose fault is it? The uneducated diving public? No. This, I believe, needs to be addressed by GUE management. I don't believe, and no one can convince me that they want only a small share of quality divers. They aren't the Marine Corp. Everyone seems to agree that dive training in most agencies is lacking and better trained divers would be a benefit to all. It's almost as if it's a defensive reply to their disappointment in their small market share. I think they could expand their market share thru practical marketing strategy.
 
Hank49:
This would be a very noble gesture but I don't believe it. All training agencies are into making money.
DIR is a way of diving, not a training agency. Do not confuse it with GUE (which is a traning agency)
 
darkpup:
Wait a minute, now I'm confused... Was I suppose to hate Mark on Thursday of this week, or was it next Thursday? I forget....

~ Jason
Oh, maybe I'm just being moody. I don't understand the point of this conversation though. I like all you guys, even Mel :wink: (sorry we didn't get to dive together in C.I. I was busy chasing my triox cert, which I just heard I got. Yay.) So if I choose to go the NAUI route, stick with Joe as an instructor, will other buddies shun me? I hope not. If I decide to stick with GUE will Joe be pissed? Hope not. I do know people who will be going their separate ways, and I think it's a shame because this whole deal is based on other people's differences.

Maybe I shouldn't have chimed in here, but really guys, let's just go diving.

Josh
 
Hank49 I’d like to respectfully disagree with you.

I think that GUE is not interested in becoming the next PADI in either the technical or recreational market. They have deliberately kept the number of instructors very small and the preparation of these instructors is very high.

I think that when you see the B/OW course roll out you will find that the number of dives required for the cert will all but certainly mean that the average candidate for dive instruction will not sign up for the class (probably not even highly motivated students).

The courses themselves are priced well below the actual time commitment that a GUE instructor invests in the class. That is a three-day class really is three complete days… and well into the evening. This tells me that GUE and its instructors are not interested first and foremost in a dollar return, although it would be naive to believe that GUE leadership and instructors don’t care about feeding their families.

GUE is a very personal expression (in my outsiders opinion) of several great divers experiences and interest in promoting safer diving at all levels by setting the bar. They intend to change diving by example rather than by numbers.

I agree with you in that the attitude of some who represent themselves as DIR is off putting and I can tell you that among the instructor corps and among the vast majority of GUE trained divers there is no interest in pushing the approach on folks who are not interested in the DIR style of diving. People are free to dive and enjoy diving as they see fit.

You have mentioned that you don’t believe that you can be convinced that GUE is content with a small share of the diving market so I wont try beyond what I have mentioned above.

In the thrust of this thread I think it is really unfortunate that GUE has lost some apparently gifted instructors because I do think agencies matter as do instructors. To the extent that this kerflufal has injured GUE it’s all of our loss GUE trained or not.
 
JeffG:
DIR is a way of diving, not a training agency. Do not confuse it with GUE (which is a traning agency)

From what I gather it's all tied together, You need to take (and pay for) the DIRf course in order to progress on to advanced GUE training. Correct? Judging from the many negative responses to DIR on SB, they've turned away potential DIRf customers, due to....arrogance? over confidence? I can't put my finger on it. And as pointed out by pro DIR people, the perception of it is wrong and misunderstood by most who have a negative view. Perhaps this is true but it IS the perception. How did this come to be? And is this what the DIR instructors want? It's not a normal business development plan to piss off a percentage of the market from the get go. DIR may be a way of diving but they do sell it in the form of the DIRf course.
 
Tollie:
Hank49 I’d like to respectfully disagree with you.

The courses themselves are priced well below the actual time commitment that a GUE instructor invests in the class. That is a three-day class really is three complete days… and well into the evening. This tells me that GUE and its instructors are not interested first and foremost in a dollar return, although it would be naive to believe that GUE leadership and instructors don’t care about feeding their families.

ot.

But this is true for almost any dive instructor, regardless of the agency he/she is affiliated with. I'm PADI but I did it for love of diving too. But I barely fed my family....which is why I'm farming shrimp again.
 
Josh,

I think the point of the conversation was to ask a question all of us have been thinking. The question on one side addresses the different agencies, and how instructors moving between the agencies may or may not improve the industry. For us in Northern California and those that have trained under AG, Joe, and Delia, it hits a soft spot in that different groups of friends are finding themselves in awkward situations as political lines are re-drawn.

I myself was happy to see the question asked, and on the topic of how agencies will change, I think it's going to be a wait and see situation. For the divers in our area, I think it gives us a chance to vent a little so that we can hopefully get back to diving. Which is what got us here in the first place (i.e. wanting to make diving more fun).

Are you going to be in Monterey on Sunday? I hear there will be scooters to play with at Breakwater, and we'll be there bright and early. Also, I'm always up for diving with you, regardless of how things play out in the future.

~ Jason

jumsted65:
Oh, maybe I'm just being moody. I don't understand the point of this conversation though. I like all you guys, even Mel :wink: (sorry we didn't get to dive together in C.I. I was busy chasing my triox cert, which I just heard I got. Yay.) So if I choose to go the NAUI route, stick with Joe as an instructor, will other buddies shun me? I hope not. If I decide to stick with GUE will Joe be pissed? Hope not. I do know people who will be going their separate ways, and I think it's a shame because this whole deal is based on other people's differences.

Maybe I shouldn't have chimed in here, but really guys, let's just go diving.

Josh
 
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