Non GUE DIR

[EIGHTWGT]

MHK & Mark

Bravo - well said.....

 

[EIGHTWGT]

From what I gather it's all tied together, You need to take (and pay for) the DIRf course in order to progress on to advanced GUE training. Correct? Judging from the many negative responses to DIR on SB, they've turned away potential DIRf customers, due to....arrogance? over confidence? I can't put my finger on it. And as pointed out by pro DIR people, the perception of it is wrong and misunderstood by most who have a negative view. Perhaps this is true but it IS the perception. How did this come to be? And is this what the DIR instructors want? It's not a normal business development plan to piss off a percentage of the market from the get go. DIR may be a way of diving but they do sell it in the form of the DIRf course.

I think MHK answered this so well -

I think another good way to look at it is simple. First - I myself as I posted really think highly of the GUE / DIR approach... Now, The way I look at is this - when anyone wants to start diving - they sign up to take open water certification class - this is a no brainer. If you want to join the military you go through basic training correct ? GUE says that to take our specific training - take the DIR/F class. So I really have never seen a problem with that and cannot understand why anyone would either. I am at a loss to understand why people would be turned off for THAT reason (the DIR/F class) It's a building block like an OW class, basic training, etc...
Anyway - some real good posts here - its a good thread. I would love to see the big certification agencies start having improved standards and REAL advanced training because I think as many others do that AOW is misdirected. To be "AAdvanced" you need a lot of the things DIR/F teaches - GOOD basic skills - AHHHH-YES- dont they call that........ FUNDAMENTALS !!

 

[PerroneFord]

I don't think you'll see the large agencies change their OW classes or even AOW classes and raise the bar that much. Not because they shouldn't, but because they are built around a business model that won't allow the attrition of students.

For me, the GUE directive is perfect. It is a fairly clear path to be come a very good diver, at a fair price. It is a path to pursue scientific, or exploratory diving, with each successive certification. If you're goal is to explore a reef in Cozumel in 40 feet of water, you don't need Tech 3.

I think the more technically inclined agencies IANTD, GUE, TDI, NACD, should stick to the idea of training less people, charging them a fair price, and keeping the bar set high. To be quite honest, I don't WANT Cave 1 to be easy. And I don't want to see anyone inside a wreck that can't maintain buoyancy.

I think GUE has it just right. Elitist? Not in my opinion.

 

[Derek S]

It is important to realize that different people have different goals. For some of us, it is trying to improve what we do and constantly striving to be better, not for ego reasons, but to be safe, have fun, and have better control of ourselves underwater. We are drawn to the system because it promotes that and helps us acheive our goals. We study, and practice, much like an amateur sports team. As a result we tend to be a tight knit group and stick together we then sometimes seem a bit standoffish. I promise you, if you go up to a DIR diver and ask them about their gear and what they do, 99% of the time you will get a nice, friendly answer, especially in my neck of the woods where all the DIR divers I know are the friendliest folks (in person).

Bravo, Mark. Too bad some people don't take the time to realize this.

where IS the proper place to clip off your Sponge Bob toy????

Question for the ages my friend...


*Re-re-edited* No problem Rick I.

 

[Meng_Tze]

Mike,
Yes it all can be unfortunately misconstrued as elitism. . .
IMHO, in a nutshell, it can be all explained using this analogy: NAUI, PADI et al are your Small Undergrad Jr. Colleges while GUE is the Graduate/Post-Grad. Professional University --in other words, you've got to matriculate through the System in order to attain greater Knowledge, Wisdom, Skill and Practice. . . The tough part is trying to find Mentors and Classmates at "Undergrad" Levels who share the same DIR Philosophy & Practice.
Sincerely,
Kevin.

I see it slightly different. While NAUI etc are general schools with some specific technical courses (like for instance a subject like applied science), GUE would be a dedicated vocational institute, where the goals are specifically to teach the deeper insights of said speciality. I think you can go to some higher levels of Technical diving with NAUI as well, it is just that their focus is on a broader spectrum of the available divers, whereas a GUE, TDI etc are focussed on specifically teaching Technical diving.


But we can all agree to disagree.
I also do not feel that DIR divers are elitists, but have seen some that do feel that they are 'better' than others. I think that if one shows up in DIR config gear, do planning on a boat, s-drill etc, it can seem intimidating to other divers on the boat. Talking about diving and having your deco profile in your head, not diving with a computer (where all others are told to HAVE a computer, heck even boat captains nowadays dont let people on the boat without a computer) all add up to the image of technical divers being elitist. But on the other hand some messages on the internet (also from GUE insiders) do not help...........

The bottom line is that if one does not entirely understands something, it can be initmidating. And if you then see people being somewhat casual about this (casual because it is part of you, you understand it) , it can come across as arrogant, elitist. This is just human nature.

My $0.23

 

[Randy43068]

I see it slightly different. While NAUI etc are general schools with some specific technical courses (like for instance a subject like applied science), GUE would be a dedicated vocational institute, where the goals are specifically to teach the deeper insights of said speciality. I think you can go to some higher levels of Technical diving with NAUI as well, it is just that their focus is on a broader spectrum of the available divers, whereas a GUE, TDI etc are focussed on specifically teaching Technical diving.


But we can all agree to disagree.
I also do not feel that DIR divers are elitists, but have seen some that do feel that they are 'better' than others. I think that if one shows up in DIR config gear, do planning on a boat, s-drill etc, it can seem intimidating to other divers on the boat. Talking about diving and having your deco profile in your head, not diving with a computer (where all others are told to HAVE a computer, heck even boat captains nowadays dont let people on the boat without a computer) all add up to the image of technical divers being elitist. But on the other hand some messages on the internet (also from GUE insiders) do not help...........

The bottom line is that if one does not entirely understands something, it can be initmidating. And if you then see people being somewhat casual about this (casual because it is part of you, you understand it) , it can come across as arrogant, elitist. This is just human nature.

My $0.23

Thanks!

 

[Randy43068]

Great thread. MHK and others have really made muddy water fairly clear again... so to speak.

 

[RTodd]

As a group, we have a lot of fun, but I've been out with recreational groups that were a blast too though,they did things like having little sponge bob things clipped to their BC's and goofing around with them during their safety stop. Though I didn't join in (RTodd, where IS the proper place to clip off your Sponge Bob toy????), it was a very fun dive.

Mark

At the end of the line.

 

[Caver95]

At the end of the line.

i guess i will clip off aunt jemima just past your sponge bob.

 

[Hank49]

If it offends people that we don't do that type of sales pitch then, candidly speaking, there isn't much we can do about. In our mission statement we pointedly identitfy the kind of diver that will benefit from our training. It's called the "discriminating" diver, another way to describe that diver is someone who is looking to be challenged ,

Perhaps "Advanced Diving School". Welcome to the world of diving! Finished your open water or AOW and want to further your skills into cave or wreck diving? Are you ready to take the next step towards professional diving skills"? This is off the top of my head but you get the picture..... Intead of "Do it Right" which implies anyone not doing this is wrong. Most people don't like hearing that after spending time and money for training. It's like telling them they're stupid, which is what probably pisses most people off. Just a thought. It seems the front line offer could be more .....welcoming and respectful of previouse training. Hell, even the Marines and Army make it look fun to join up. They bust your *** once you're in but I see your point about wanting only dedicated divers....anyway. Thanks for your insider view. Hank