No such thing as a Pony Bottle

[The Chairman]

Curious about this. Wouldn't you be better off, in an emergency, with the same nitrox mix in your pony as the main tank? I have no idea. Just wondering.

I asked this same question to a Nitrox diver - their position was if for any reason they had to drop below the MOD of Nitrox (ex - rescue) they wanted the flexibility of air - it made sense to me at the time. But I am not Nitrox certified and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn. So take it for what it is worth...

That's why it's also a "bail out" bottle as well as a pony. Always use air in your pony for the very reason you stated: it is not depth dependent. You can use it at any time and for any reason. Again, since there is no worry about when/if you can use it, then there is no training necessary. Well, no more training than you need to breathe off of any compressed air cylinder underwater. The more you dive with it, the easier it is to sling.

 

[LowVizWiz]

PantherDiver, If what you are saying is true and I have no reason to doubt you, just getting to dive the pony bottle should be the least of your concerns.
Let's say you do call PADI and they side with you and point out what everyone else has said here regarding redundant air supplies; Do you really want to continue training with this shop?

Doesn't it make you question what else they've been teaching that's out of whack?
They are not even transferring the book knowledge to you as evident from their blatant omissions from the deep diver manual.

It sounds like you're financially invested in this shop with all kinds of courses and walking away could be painful, but if you're really concerned about your safety seeking alternate training maybe your best option.

Good luck to you!

 

[tkdgodess]

Shop is speaking drivel. Im a padi instructor for a Padi shop. We have 30 and 40 cubic foot bottles and regs with your choice of back tank mount brackets or side sling for rent. High capacity steel tanks and pony bottle for deep and wreck courses. I have had people in my courses who showed up with their own ponies, which is fine, i just include them deploying them for practice a few times as part of the skills. Not all instructors (especially if a recreationally focused shop) have training or experience using redundant air supplies.

 

[tbone1004]

you can stretch 32% to 115 if you have to, 32% to 130, and 28 to 160 in a pinch.

Most of the time we are on 32% and since you're only trained to 130, you can bounce down to 130 without pissing your CNS clock off too much. It all depends on where you are and what diving you're doing, but you are supposed to have your gas mixed for the MOD of that dive, which is usually the ocean floor. Ledge dives can be the exception.

Coast of NC banks EAN30, which safely is 120FSW to carry air if you're doing that type of diving where the MOD and the floor are the same level.

Cave country is predominantly 32% with a MOD of 115 FFW at PO2 1.4. Not a lot of caves dip below that, and you obviously won't be carrying a pony bottle in a cave, but for breather bailout bottles and stage/buddy bottles, they're typically the same as your backgas mix.

Keeping bailout the same as your backgas is more important now than ever before with how computers are dominating recreational diving. If you are down in an emergency, the odds of you racking up deco are decently high, especially at those depths where you don't have a whole lot of time to begin with. PADI gives you 10 mins? of bottom time at 130? That's not a whole lot, and when you tend to need those ponys are when knuckleheads aren't paying attention to their SPG's. A normal recreational diver with an AL80 will have the "oh **** I'm at 1000psi" moment somewhere about 12-13 minutes into the dive. Takes ~ 2 minutes to get to 130ft, uses somewhere around 300-400psi for descent depending on how much inflation gas they use, about the same for ascent, and the boats want you back with 500psi minimum. The AL80 will last right about the same amount of time as your NDL's will so you're pushing deco already. If you start racking up deco and you don't have a multigas computer, now your computer is calculating deco based on the higher percentage of nitrox so your stops are shorter than they are supposed to be. How many recreational divers are going to remember to switch their computers over to a different gas in an emergency? It's safer/smarter to just have the same mix in the pony as it is in backgas, if you can't have the same, at least have it closer than 28+% nitrox and air. Going from 32% backgas to a 28% pony is a lot different than going from 28 to 21.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I went into the shop and told him I thought about what he said and discussed it with my family and friends and want to dive with my bottle and I wanted to know more of his concerns.

He he told me it's a tec skill and that he would have to contact PADI and find out what training I needed. He said because his instructors were not Tec that it wouldn't be good for me to dive with it if there's problems. The bottle created it's own complexities and can cause problems without training. Such as what if I lost my primary regulator what would I do and I said use my alternate air source off my BCD if I had a problem getting my primary reg (or the pony reg but I didn't want to sound like a smart ass). Well, no one in our shop, students or instructors wear one. I told him that's their choice that this was for my safety not theirs. Told me adding gear can cause problems and explained how a guy go tangled up in his reel. I explained that in my open water, rescue diver, deep, Divemaster books all talk about having a pony bottle so it's not Tec. He argued the point in which my non diving husband got upset and pointed at my bottle and said that's in the book, it's not a stage bottle but for emergencies. The owner said you can wear it I don't care and walked away.

I'm not going diving this weekend that is clear and now we are trying to figure out if we can eat all the classes and pay him for all I've taken so far and quit the program. Deal with VA and such. I'm beyond angry and my husband is livid. Even my 19 year old is saying this is messed up.

He's not only an idiot it also sounds like he's scared. He does not want you to influence his other students in any way into buying gear that he does not sell, is unfamiliar with, and might show others just how little he knows and how narrow minded he is.

I'd file a complaint with the agency, contact the VA, and tell them you are being advised to do things that you feel are unsafe. That are contradictory to what is in the printed materials and standards for recommended equipment.

Is the VA paying him directly? If so, how much? They don't like waste with all the bad press they have been getting lately.

Some instructors think we should cover up for each other and give some leeway to stupidity. I don't believe in that any more than I believe in cops covering for bad cops, doctors covering for quacks, or lawyers covering for shysters.

A big problem with the dive industry today is the inferior instructors and practices that have been allowed to go on. To the point that they are, in some places now, a festering, puss filled, infection that is giving a bad image to all of us.

When you contact the agency and the VA let them know they have two weeks to do something. Then you go to social media and let everyone you can think of know about the situation.

 

[Colliam7]

I went into the shop and told him I thought about what he said and discussed it with my family and friends and want to dive with my bottle and I wanted to know more of his concerns.

Good for you. You have offered him a very reasonable, and positive, opportunity to explain his specific concerns.

He he told me it's a tec skill and that he would have to contact PADI and find out what training I needed. He said because his instructors were not Tec that it wouldn't be good for me to dive with it if there's problems.

Earlier in the thread, several of us described him as an 'idiot'. In the clearer light of the next day, I agree that we were probably a bit harsh, as NetDoc suggested. He is obviously ignorant, as Pete suggested. But, based on his more recent response, I still harbor the notion that he is just an idiot. And, his response to your follow-up concerns simply reinforces that notion. It is one thing to express string opinions. It is another, altogether, to persist in voicing abrupt, inflexible, non-negotiable opinions, without making any attempt to explain those positions, and discuss the details, PARTICULARLY when speaking to a future dive professional.

The bottle created it's own complexities and can cause problems without training. Such as what if I lost my primary regulator what would I do and I said use my alternate air source off my BCD if I had a problem getting my primary reg (or the pony reg but I didn't want to sound like a smart ass).

Yes, a bottle CAN create it's own set of issues. But, your response was very appropriate.

Well, no one in our shop, students or instructors wear one.

And, that part concerns me. Why not? If an Instructor is not competent, or currently proficient, in handling a pony bottle, I frankly don't want that person teaching ANYONE, much less Divemaster candidates. An Instructor MUST be better than the students. I can only imagine what would have happened if you had shown up in a backplate / wing, with a long primary hose and a short hose bungeed necklace on your alternate, as your regulator configuration.

I told him that's their choice that this was for my safety not theirs. Told me adding gear can cause problems and explained how a guy go tangled up in his reel.

It IS their choice. Yours is different. And, reel entanglement is a real issue. I will say, without fear of informed contradiction, that deploying a properly set-up pony is far less likely to cause an equipment issue than a reel deployment. Both do require practice. NEITHER is exclusively a 'tec' skill, by any means.

I explained that in my open water, rescue diver, deep, Divemaster books all talk about having a pony bottle so it's not Tec. He argued the point in which my non diving husband got upset and pointed at my bottle and said that's in the book, it's not a stage bottle but for emergencies. The owner said you can wear it I don't care and walked away.

At this point, I will reiterate my previous comment - run away, VERY fast.

I'm not going diving this weekend that is clear

Good for you. A wise decision.

and now we are trying to figure out if we can eat all the classes and pay him for all I've taken so far and quit the program. Deal with VA and such. I'm beyond angry and my husband is livid. Even my 19 year old is saying this is messed up.

I think you can deal with the VA. VA money should not be used to support this level of performance in SCUBA instruction.

You don't mention WHERE in the SE USA you are located. There are quite a few facilities that offer dive training through the GI bill. You may be able to transfer credit, although you may have to use up some extra 'months' of credit. I would love to know what center is involved, but won't ask, because I don't want you put on the spot.

 

[Akimbo]

…In the clearer light of the next day, I agree that we were probably a bit harsh, as NetDoc suggested. He is obviously uninformed...

“Uninformed” is very generous. Do you really need to read a training manual to determine that a bailout bottle is prudent when diving deeper than you can safely execute a free ascent?

 

[Colliam7]

“Uninformed” is very generous.

LOL. Yes, it is, not only 'very' generous, but 'too' generous. I was trying to paraphrase Pete's (NetDoc's) post, and used the wrong word. I subsequently amended it, to 'ignorant' - the term he actually used. And, yes, even that term is very / too generous. The OP gave this owner every chance to back away from his initial extreme position, and discuss the issue in a cool, dispassionate, logical manner, in fact a chance to 'teach' her something, which is what he should have been doing all along. He failed (miserably), at least on the basis of her description.

Do you really need to read a training manual to determine that a bailout bottle is prudent when diving deeper than you can safely execute a free ascent?

It scares me that someone like this is getting our tax money to teach a DM course to former military personnel. Frankly, it scares me that someone like this is conducting a dive professional course for anyone. OK, call me old-fashioned / too conservative / egotistical / whatever.

 

[fire_diver]

You don't mention WHERE in the SE USA you are located. There are quite a few facilities that offer dive training through the GI bill. You may be able to transfer credit, although you may have to use up some extra 'months' of credit. I would love to know what center is involved, but won't ask, because I don't want you put on the spot.

I'm not shy, I want to know. Who is this idiot? But if you want to withhold the name until you have successfully switched to a different shop I understand. Whether you tell US or not, you should be calling the supervising agency and the VA to let them know.

 

[The Chairman]

“Uninformed” is very generous. Do you really need to read a training manual to determine that a bailout bottle is prudent when diving deeper than you can safely execute a free ascent?

In the clearer light of the next day, I agree that we were probably a bit harsh, as NetDoc suggested. He is obviously ignorant, as Pete suggested.

There is enough FUDD talk (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt and Deception) in politics that we don't need to have that crap in diving as well. Too often I see divers and shops have the attitude that "If we don't teach, dive or sell it, then it must be crap". So what if a shop has no clue about how or when to use a pony bottle? Many people posting in this thread display the exact same attitude they find problematic in the OP's dive shop. In fact, they seem to be more intolerant than the OP's dive shop. Why? What's the real dealeo? Do we HAVE to eviscerate those who dive differently than we do? I bet they even use/sell split fins and don't like BP&Wings. Will the strokery ever end???

It's time to ratchet down the drama.

Most instructors are taught to explicitly follow standards in each and every class. They have to be careful because if they violate standards and an accident occurs, they will find themselves without insurance and all alone when they get sued. It's completely understandable that they want to be SURE about standards and why they are fearful about possibly violating them. I had the same thing happen during my ITC when I taught with a long hose and a back inflate. Half of the evaluators were confident I was violating standards while the other half saw it as a good idea. None of them were idiots, but they certainly interpreted standards differently. Moreover, suggesting that you should run away from any of them over this difference of opinion would be short sighted as well. I am more apt to run away from an intolerant instructor rather than one who simply dives differently than myself.