No such thing as a Pony Bottle

[boulderjohn]

I think there is some misunderstanding here. I've never seen any OW class students with pony bottles. Pony bottle is something of a personal choice, you want to sling a pony bottle - then just sling a pony bottle. You don't want it - don't do it. From the other side, I can understand the instructor. Why would he need students with pony bottles during the class? It's a class. He suppose to be teaching the skills. How would a pony bottle help during the class? Would you (who are instructors) prefer every student in the class to carry a pony?

Are you under the impression that this was an OW class? It was a Deep Diver specialty.

Here is one of the standards for Dive #3, along with some of the suggestions for the instructor:

Perform an 8-minute simulated emergency decompression stop
at 5 metres/15 feet before surfacing, while breathing from an
emergency air source for at least one minute of the total time.
a. Briefing
1. Dive sequence – review Dive Three tasks
b. Predive procedures
c. Dive Three Tasks
1. Student divers repeat timed task at depth for comparison with time
taken to complete the same task on the surface.
2. Student divers perform an 8-minute simulated emergency decompression
stop while breathing from an emergency air source for at least one
minute.
d. Post-dive procedures
e. Debriefing
1. Student divers discuss the timed task performed at the surface to that
performed at depth. Guide discussions to address what worked, what
didn’t work, and how things may be done differently the next time. Specifically
focus the discussion on descents using a reference line, wall or
sloping bottom as a tactile or visual guide, their timed task, their ascents
using a reference line, wall or sloping bottom as a tactile or visual guide,
and procedures for monitoring their ascent rate. In addition, talk about
the 8-minute simulated emergency decompression stop at 5 metres/15
feet before surfacing and how student divers handled breathing from an
emergency air source for at least one minute of total time. Ask student
divers to discuss what they used for an emergency air source (alternate
air source second stage, pony bottle, H- and Y-valves). Again, ask divers
to elaborate on what worked, what didn’t, and how things may be done
differently the next time.

 

[OtherHalf]

The type that doesn't carry a pony bottle, which is 99% of all recreational divers.

I think there is some misunderstanding here. I've never seen any OW class students with pony bottles. Pony bottle is something of a personal choice, you want to sling a pony bottle - then just sling a pony bottle. You don't want it - don't do it. From the other side, I can understand the instructor. Why would he need students with pony bottles during the class? It's a class. He suppose to be teaching the skills. How would a pony bottle help during the class? Would you (who are instructors) prefer every student in the class to carry a pony?

Basically the guy says: "my class, my rules". He may have said something that sounds stupid reading through OPs posts, but that doesn't change the fact that carrying a pony for class is completely unnecessary and creates extra headache for the instructor in case the student can't handle it properly, drops it, gets entangled.

I'd say: finish your class and then go diving with or without pony - up to you. There is no "scuba police", do what you want. You don't need permission from any instructor.

But this isn't an OW class. This is a deep specialty class. Where the use of a pony is endorsed, or even encouraged. The course manual doesn't seem to suggest that the use of a pony is a skill set outside the capabilities of a class attendee. Which implies that an instructor should be qble to teach how to use and employ the pony properly.

I don't think the use of a pony should be optional, it should be part of the instruction. He should be teaching the skill.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I don't read anything here as suggesting the shop is wrong simply because they don't do things the way we/the OP/anyone else does things, or, that the reason they should alter course is because someone else says so. Rather, people are pointing out they're wrong and should alter course because no reasonable person applying basic human intelligence to the facts as we know them could (in good faith) say what they've repeatedly said. Generally trying to follow an ambiguous rule is a great reason for all kind of stuff...but this doesn't seem to be that gray a case.

 

[DaleC]

I wonder if the instructors know how incompetent the owner makes them sound?

Take a deep breath regarding pulling the pin though. There's no reason you should pay the price for his stupidity and quitting may be seen as accepting financial responsibility for his behavior. Talk to both PADI and the VA regarding your concerns first. You may be able to transfer your remaining course load to another location.

 

[mrdre]

Are you under the impression that this was an OW class? It was a Deep Diver specialty.

Here is one of the standards for Dive #3, along with some of the suggestions for the instructor:

Perform an 8-minute simulated emergency decompression stop
at 5 metres/15 feet before surfacing, while breathing from an
emergency air source for at least one minute of the total time.
a. Briefing
1. Dive sequence – review Dive Three tasks
b. Predive procedures
c. Dive Three Tasks
1. Student divers repeat timed task at depth for comparison with time
taken to complete the same task on the surface.
2. Student divers perform an 8-minute simulated emergency decompression
stop while breathing from an emergency air source for at least one
minute.
d. Post-dive procedures
e. Debriefing
1. Student divers discuss the timed task performed at the surface to that
performed at depth. Guide discussions to address what worked, what
didn’t work, and how things may be done differently the next time. Specifically
focus the discussion on descents using a reference line, wall or
sloping bottom as a tactile or visual guide, their timed task, their ascents
using a reference line, wall or sloping bottom as a tactile or visual guide,
and procedures for monitoring their ascent rate. In addition, talk about
the 8-minute simulated emergency decompression stop at 5 metres/15
feet before surfacing and how student divers handled breathing from an
emergency air source for at least one minute of total time. Ask student
divers to discuss what they used for an emergency air source (alternate
air source second stage, pony bottle, H- and Y-valves). Again, ask divers
to elaborate on what worked, what didn’t, and how things may be done
differently the next time.

From what I understood, the pony bottle is mentioned just once in parenthesis. Emergency air source = octopus. It says "ask student to discuss".. Well.. student discussed it without asking. So instructor is in full compliance.. Its said - "discuss" and so he did.

 

[PantherDiver]

There's been a lot of great information and I appreciate a great deal of it. I don't think the owner is an idiot, however sometimes I believe people forget the basics. Plates and wings are common here so is Tech and Cave. The course I am taking is Deep Diver and my class which was supposed to start, about two and a half hours later it hadn't started and I said I had to go soon. My "class" consisted of a 15 minute knowledge review. I did my research, I did drills and I understood the complete concept. Had I gone up there with this and did not do any research or prep then I would of understood the concern. I practiced in the pool and in the river in prep for this weekend. I think some of the issue is no one has a pony.

I received this today which is a much different tone from this morning but still very insistent it's a "stage" bottle.

"I wasn't prepared to have that conversation this morning. I still needed to contact PADI to find out what the standards say on this. This has nothing to do with you personally but the decision made is in effect creating a new policy I have to follow for the next few years basically. I decided to call PADI for more information instead of just making the decision I felt was right. I can not do something to take care of one person without making that effective for everyone. So while I don't think it will end up being an issue for you to use the stage I can't just make that decision on the fly and was not prepared to argue about until I got more information. I called PADI and while they agreed with my assessment they also stated that there is no policy or standard that says that a student cannot use a stage bottle. "

 

[mrdre]

What do you think would happen if the student that an instructor would not allow to carry a redundant gas source got separated, went OOA, and was injured or dies?

He/she ends up in hospital or gets cremated or buried. It's taught in OW class: if you get separated from your dive buddy and can't find him - end the dive. Look for him on the surface. It's taught in OW class to monitor the air supply and surface with 500 PSI. If the student is taking divemaster class then he shouldn't be OOA, period. If we are talking about cases where the student does not follow simple things he/she learned from OW class, then I can come up with gazilion hypothetical situations when the person dies even with a pony: switched to pony and goes OOA, gets entangled, panics, get DCS, rips eardrums, gets air embolism, etc.

Pony is for catastrophic air supply failures. It's not for OOA situations, OOA situations must not ever happen, period. If the diver is not checking the air supply then I can absolutely assume he/she is not checking depth, nitrogen levels, etc. I'd doubt that he'd even remember what embolism is. Which means he has a very high chance of getting injured and killed even with a pony. In this case pony is pointless and it just an annoyance for the rescue and recovery team.

 

[redacted]

He/she ends up in hospital or gets cremated or buried. It's taught in OW class: if you get separated from your dive buddy and can't find him - end the dive. Look for him on the surface. It's taught in OW class to monitor the air supply and surface with 500 PSI. If the student is taking divemaster class then he shouldn't be OOA, period. If we are talking about cases where the student does not follow simple things he/she learned from OW class, then I can come up with gazilion hypothetical situations when the person dies even with a pony: switched to pony and goes OOA, gets entangled, panics, get DCS, rips eardrums, gets air embolism, etc.

Pony is for catastrophic air supply failures. It's not for OOA situations, OOA situations must not ever happen, period. If the diver is not checking the air supply then I can absolutely assume he/she is not checking depth, nitrogen levels, etc. I'd doubt that he'd even remember what embolism is. Which means he has a very high chance of getting injured and killed even with a pony. In this case pony is pointless and it just an annoyance for the rescue and recovery team.

You are almost as scary as the subject shop.

 

[BUDMANOK]

It's not for OOA situations

let me see if I understand this. If I go OOA because I'm stupid I can't use my pony and must die ?

 

[Akimbo]

… I received this today which is a much different tone from this morning but still very insistent it's a "stage" bottle.

Would this guy’s underwear be in a twist if you mounted a 13 or 19 Ft³ bailout to your single?