No such thing as a Pony Bottle

[Dr. Lecter]

There is enough FUDD talk (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt and Deception) in politics that we don't need to have that crap in diving as well. Too often I see divers and shops have the attitude that "If we don't teach, dive or sell it, then it must be crap". So what if a shop has no clue about how or when to use a pony bottle? Many people posting in this thread display the exact same attitude they find problematic in the OP's dive shop. In fact, they seem to be more intolerant than the OP's dive shop. Why? What's the real dealeo? Do we HAVE to eviscerate those who dive differently than we do? I bet they even use/sell split fins and don't like BP&Wings. Will the strokery ever end???

It's time to ratchet down the drama.

Most instructors are taught to explicitly follow standards in each and every class. They have to be careful because if they violate standards and an accident occurs, they will find themselves without insurance and all alone when they get sued. It's completely understandable that they want to be SURE about standards and why they are fearful about possibly violating them. I had the same thing happen during my ITC when I taught with a long hose and a back inflate. Half of the evaluators were confident I was violating standards while the other half saw it as a good idea. None of them were idiots, but they certainly interpreted standards differently. Moreover, suggesting that you should run away from any of them over this difference of opinion would be short sighted as well. I am more apt to run away from an intolerant instructor rather than one who simply dives differently than myself.

Is it unreasonable to draw the line for being open-minded and tolerant at an instructor/LDS owner (1) not only diving differently, but requiring you to do it their way too, where (2) the difference is bringing or not bringing a piece of deep-diving safety equipment that is explicitly mentioned as an option in the course materials of the recreational class you're taking? At some point (well passed in this scenario IMO), it strains credulity to say the real motivation is a genuine concern for compliance with standards.

I agree wholeheartedly that differences in how someone dives are pretty overblown, for various reasons. But while I try not to tell others how they should dive (obviously I'm happy to debate why I think something is or isn't a good idea), I can see why someone invested in a program as the OP is would find being told how she has to dive in this case...worth some drama.

 

[The Chairman]

Is it unreasonable to

to call them an idiot? I would say so.

It's important to select the right instructor for YOU. If you don't like the way they teach, then vote with your fins. I would never suggest that you continue if you feel uncomfortable with their protocols. However, if you feel compelled to continue to get your diving instruction from them for whatever reason, then you dive under their rules. Help them to understand what a pony bottle is if you can, but don't expect them to violate what they see as a standard just because a cyber lynch mob thinks they should. After all...

:sinq:
​

 

[redacted]

to call them an idiot? I would say so.

It's important to select the right instructor for YOU. If you don't like the way they teach, then vote with your fins. I would never suggest that you continue if you feel uncomfortable with their protocols. However, if you feel compelled to continue to get your diving instruction from them for whatever reason, then you dive under their rules. Help them to understand what a pony bottle is if you can, but don't expect them to violate what they see as a standard just because a cyber lynch mob thinks they should. After all...

:sinq:
​

So, what type of recreational diver would this type instructor be right for???

 

[boulderjohn]

Pete, the concern I have with the situation is the following.

1. When you apply to teach a PADI specialty, you have to affirm to PADI that you have the experience and skills needed to teach all its requirements.

2. The use of a pony bottle is spelled out clearly as an option in the course standards.

3. The owner said first that it is not a part of recreational diving, even though it is in the standards the shop personnel affirmed that are capable of teaching.

4. The owner then said that none of the staff members are qualified to teach a skill that is in the standards they have affirmed to PADI they are capable of teaching.

That is not a case of an instructor wanting to be sure to stick with the standards; it is a case of instructors refusing to stick with the standards after being told by the student what they are.

 

[mrdre]

So, what type of recreational diver would this type instructor be right for???

The type that doesn't carry a pony bottle, which is 99% of all recreational divers.

I think there is some misunderstanding here. I've never seen any OW class students with pony bottles. Pony bottle is something of a personal choice, you want to sling a pony bottle - then just sling a pony bottle. You don't want it - don't do it. From the other side, I can understand the instructor. Why would he need students with pony bottles during the class? It's a class. He suppose to be teaching the skills. How would a pony bottle help during the class? Would you (who are instructors) prefer every student in the class to carry a pony?

Basically the guy says: "my class, my rules". He may have said something that sounds stupid reading through OPs posts, but that doesn't change the fact that carrying a pony for class is completely unnecessary and creates extra headache for the instructor in case the student can't handle it properly, drops it, gets entangled.

I'd say: finish your class and then go diving with or without pony - up to you. There is no "scuba police", do what you want. You don't need permission from any instructor.

 

[Akimbo]

… In fact, they seem to be more intolerant than the OP's dive shop. Why?...

Simple really.

• Because they appear to be incapable of applying common sense. Does anyone really believe that denying the use of a backup gas supply will reduce their liability?
• Because they are unfamiliar with the manual and standards they are teaching. Post #33
• Because they insult the intelligence of their customer rather than offer a rational explanation.

I agree that name-calling isn’t productive, but discussing errors in fact and logic is fair game. I can’t speak to the politics of tech and retailing, but I don’t see how a business person would profit from letting that influence their judgment.

 

[The Chairman]

So, what type of recreational diver would this type instructor be right for???

I have no idea. I don't even know who this is.

Pete, the concern I have with the situation is the following.

John,

I have concerns about a lot of instructors over lots of standards. I don't call them idiots because they don't teach like me. Who knows why the owner is really concerned about this? Perhaps, he's not even an instructor? Perhaps one of the instructors didn't like the way he carried the bottle either on the boat or in the water? Perhaps they feel that he isn't ready for additional task loading and are using "standards" as a catch all? Perhaps he's just a bit confused? I wasn't privy to the conversations and we only have the OP's viewpoint on all of this. No, I don't think he's an idiot either. However, Elena hates it when I require students doing a search and recovery where they will be out of sight of each other to carry ponies. She thinks I might be violating standards and then I point out that I'm not a PADI instructor so the rules that apply to her don't apply to me.

I simply abhor the mind set that condemns a diver, instructor or a shop over this kind of thing. You might be comfortable passing such judgements from afar: I'm not. Color me open minded.

 

[kelemvor]

Most instructors are taught to explicitly follow standards in each and every class. They have to be careful because if they violate standards and an accident occurs, they will find themselves without insurance and all alone when they get sued. It's completely understandable that they want to be SURE about standards and why they are fearful about possibly violating them. I had the same thing happen during my ITC when I taught with a long hose and a back inflate. Half of the evaluators were confident I was violating standards while the other half saw it as a good idea. None of them were idiots, but they certainly interpreted standards differently. Moreover, suggesting that you should run away from any of them over this difference of opinion would be short sighted as well. I am more apt to run away from an intolerant instructor rather than one who simply dives differently than myself.

I thought it had already been established that the standard he was following (PADI) recommended the use of a pony for the class in question.

 

[Aguablanco1]

to call them an idiot? I would say so.

It's important to select the right instructor for YOU. If you don't like the way they teach, then vote with your fins. I would never suggest that you continue if you feel uncomfortable with their protocols. However, if you feel compelled to continue to get your diving instruction from them for whatever reason, then you dive under their rules. Help them to understand what a pony bottle is if you can, but don't expect them to violate what they see as a standard just because a cyber lynch mob thinks they should. After all...

:sinq:
​

While I agree in principle, a student should never be expected to accept lower standards. Especially safety standards. The standards are set by the certifying agency and are the minimum required to attain the certification sought. The LDS may choose to teach more, they can not teach or expect less. That is my impression of this whole incident, he believes he has the only way to learn how to be a DM. How sad. The owner acted like a 5 year old who didn't get his way in storming off. The OP may be stuck here and can't vote with the fins. What do you suggest happen? One can't let someone else set lower safety protocols for them. Isn't that a form of "trust me" diving?
RichH

 

[redacted]

Basically the guy says: "my class, my rules". He may have said something that sounds stupid reading through OPs posts, but that doesn't change the fact that carrying a pony for class is completely unnecessary and creates extra headache for the instructor in case the student can't handle it properly, drops it, gets entangled.

What do you think would happen if the student that an instructor would not allow to carry a redundant gas source got separated, went OOA, and was injured or dies?