No such thing as a Pony Bottle

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I've done the mistake of discussing with someone with several thousand dives before, so I guess I'm setting mysef up for some serious bashing here. But, dude, what you're claiming is contrary to everything that's known and published about nitrogen narcosis….

No bashing, your perspective is very common among recreational divers due to highly abbreviated US-centric training and liability constraints. As for “everything that's known and published”, I suggest you broaden your reading. For example:

US Navy Diving Manual Rev. 6 with Change A (red emphasis added):

3-9.1.1 Causes of Nitrogen Narcosis. Breathing nitrogen at high partial pressures has a narcotic effect on the central nervous system that causes euphoria and impairs the diver’s ability to think clearly. The narcotic effect begins at a nitrogen partial pressure of approximately 4 ata and increases in severity as the partial pressure is increased beyond that point. A nitrogen partial pressure of 8 ata causes very marked impairment; partial pressures in excess of 10 ata may lead to hallucinations and unconsciousness. For a dive on air, narcosis usually appears at a depth of approximately 130 fsw, is very prominent at a depth of 200 fsw, and becomes disabling at deeper depths.
There is a wide range of individual susceptibility to narcosis. There is also some evidence that adaptation occurs on repeated exposures. Some divers, particularly those experienced in deep operations with air, can often work as deep as 200 fsw without serious difficulty. Others cannot.

Mild symptoms, like those that begin to appear about 130', are often very subtle and can go unrecognized. I contend that you don’t learn anything from Narcosis symptoms that aren’t recognized — which is the original basis of my comments in this thead.

This is not to bash to new divers. Think about what a foreign environment diving really is. Divers are in a media that they can’t breathe, buoys them up enough that they can fly (similar to zero gravity but not quite), colors and sounds are attenuated, heat conducts about 25x faster, plants and animals are unfamiliar, and most are covered head to toe with an strange collection of hardware. Of course we are distracted, like texting while driving. Symptoms of distraction and sensory overload are often attributed to Narcosis… except the exact same things often happen in 20' of water, especially to dive students. Throw in the random stupid things that all humans occasionally do and you have a perfect storm for misdiagnosis… “Honest, I’m not that stupid so I must have been narked”. Hmm, I might have used that one once or twice. :wink:

Narcosis is an easily scapegoat for other complicating factors on deep air. Higher respiratory workloads due to gas density, elevate PPO2, an often greater equipment burden, plus all the normal stressors of diving all play a part.

…What kind of narcosis are you talking about here? The stupid drunk we all hear stories about during OW class, with antics like trying to donate air to a passing fish? Or the mental tunnel vision and sluggishness that starts to creep up on most people already before 30m/100ft, but which an experienced diver usually doesn't feel because he's got enough spare mental bandwith that the slight impairment isn't noticeable unless someting happens that requires all available mental capacity?...

I have read the stupid-drunk stories like this since getting a copy of Cousteau’s The Silent World in the mid-1950s. I suspect this quote was “adapted” from earlier works:

Chapter 2: Rapture of the Deep, page 31 of my copy:
The first stage is a mild anesthesia, after which the diver becomes a god. If a passing fish seems to require air, the crazed diver may tear out his air pipe or mouth grip as a sublime gift.

We all know that isn’t the first stage of Narcosis, but call it literary license. It might be close to the hallucination stage at 10 ata. No reputable source suggests that the extreme symptoms that can occur in the 10 ata (+/- 300'/90 M) range happen at 130' or even 165'. Unfortunately, that is the impression too many divers are left with — arguably by design.

… It's the same as with drunk driving. Every frikkin' test has shown that a BAC of less than 0.05% will impair the driver, dulling reflexes and reducing the ability to multitask…

I cringe when the alcohol analogy is used to describe Narcosis. Nearly everyone with real experience with Narcosis describes their impairment as being quite different from Booze or drugs. However, it is an academic argument.

My point is that Narcosis isn’t the boogeyman that sea stories suggest nor is it benign. It is just another factor in the environment that divers must master to manage risk.​

What really matters is that each diver learns about Narcosis for themselves rather than from conflicting stories or what others seem to do or avoid. The formula is simple. Make as many dives as you want to a benign depth like 60'/20M and start adding depth in small increments. Stop adding depth when you feel you are approaching the limits of your comfort zone. Whatever that depth happens to be, it isn’t something to be ashamed or proud of. Still want to dive deeper? Then take Trimix and related courses. Of course all the issues of decompression diving plus ensuring adequate and reliable breathing gas must also be mastered.
 
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Is it my imagination, or did the OP drop out of the discussion after Post 187. Here we are on Post 231, arguing about trimix and narcosis, when the original question was about a pony bottle. Maybe, I missed the 'page turn' signal that marked the transition.
 
Pony bottles are not mentioned in the 1963 “The Complete Illustrated Guide to Snorkel and Deep Diving” by Owen Lee, who dived with Cousteau and then worked for the Navy for many years in San Diego, where I met him in 1968. His book is charming to read, but dated in almost every aspect. We have come a long way...

Cousteau used a different, and IMHO a more effective, strategy than recreational divers even though there were no SPGs. The third cylinder on the manifold was held in reserve by a separate cylinder valve. When the first two tanks were drained to a pressure where breathing resistance was felt the diver would open the third cylinder, equalizing all three. That was generally treated as the end of the dive.

Is it my imagination, or did the OP drop out of the discussion after Post 187. Here we are on Post 231, arguing about trimix and narcosis, when the original question was about a pony bottle. Maybe, I missed the 'page turn' signal that marked the transition.

See the OP’s Post #14
… I'm being told we need to meet a required 130feet in 50 degree water because they want us to be narc'd and know how it feels...

Is anyone arguing? I see it as a reasonable discussion.
 
I can see what Akimbo is talking about. With new divers (not a slam) there can be signs of narcosis on the surface, pre-dive. Taking too long to do simple tasks, making basic mistakes, fumbling equipment. Apprehension and task loading create a very real form of tunnel vision. Repeated exposure to kit, environment and ones own abilities to cope, lessen this over time.

I had an interesting experience recently in going for a ride in a chamber to 160'. We were in a social group and having a good time and expected to get narc'd. I would say, looking forward to it, and of course, we did. Because we knew it was a controlled setting it was a happy narc which was not helped by one of us suddenly bursting out speaking fluent Chinese! I recall the feeling of well being and happiness and laughing a bit too loud at the others predicament. At one point I sat back and observed myself. I was losing it a bit but had the ability to pull myself back and probably could have focused myself on some task if need be. I imagine that ability to pull back and focus could be reenforced over time but also believe I could lose that ability the deeper/longer I went.

IRL, I rarely get a happy narc because I am usually alone and very aware that losing ability UW could be dangerous. I am hyper vigilant that way knowing it is not a good thing. Instead I get a dark narc that forces me to move up in the water column. I imagine that might be different if I dove in clear tropical conditions where ambient light penetrates to narcotic depths. Even with a dark narc one has to learn to work within the anxiety and not bolt.

Not definitive or empirical, just my experience so far.
 
I just wanted to post an update:

Owner/instructor issued me a plate to dive with this weekend. while I was in the pool familiarizing myself with a new configuration as well as the pony bottle the owner came by. I have come to the belief that if there was truly a concern and if "my student" wanted to use a piece of gear I would take time to make sure they were doing it safely instead of being close minded. I brought up how to safely enter the water with my pony bottle. He said it was beyond my skill level and would have the dive master lower it for me.

My first 3 dives were night dives in 66 degree surface temps. I can say other than the added weight before I enter the water I almost forgot I had it on. We did navigation, sat in complete dark while a eel the thickness of a 16oz soda bottle and 3-4 feel long would not leave me alone with the lights off and the pony was quite comfortable on each dive. By dive 2 I was really cold and just wanted to push though and get it done. Lesson learned, hypothermia is a very rapid progression that none of EMT classes ever took prepared me as the written description is much nicer than the actual event. Once The cold air hit me the shaking became very violent and quite painful, I couldn't even get my gear off or think. One of the dive students is a Paramedic was able to take action. I'm actually thankful that I did not go on the "Deep speciality, your going to 130 feet to get narc'd especially at 50 degree temps". At 66 degrees the effects were bad 50 degrees it would of been worse. Now doing research on better thermal protection.

The gulf was perfect this weekend and the two dives at 75/60 feet were nice. I did a giant stride off the boat with the pony bottle and absolutely no issues.

I want to thank the people who responded to my inquiry. I am quickly realizing that I need to be responsible for myself, my own peace of mind and that no one should deny me that owner/instructor or not. If the rule is anyone should be able to call off a dive for any reason, I did before I even hit water. I'm now very glad I didn't go that weekend. I will dive with my kit shallow or deep and continue to drill and hope it will never be needed. As for why I picked 30Cf. I found an article by Doppler before I came to SB, it sounded reasonable out of much if the information I had gone over. I'm 5' 5" and a 30cf seemed better suited for my body type. I think now a 40 would of been ok but I'm content with the 30. I used a Dive Rite stage bottle rig and had to adjust to bring it closer to my body. I sling on the right side and moved my spare mask to my left pocket. My regulator is a Atomic B2 DIN and the bottle is filled with air. I would like to thank Doppler for taking the time to answer a lot of questions I had to fine tune my equipment and use before my dive. Again I read every post and appreciate the input.
 
I just wanted to post an update:

Owner/instructor issued me a plate to dive with this weekend. while I was in the pool familiarizing myself with a new configuration as well as the pony bottle the owner came by. I have come to the belief that if there was truly a concern and if "my student" wanted to use a piece of gear I would take time to make sure they were doing it safely instead of being close minded. I brought up how to safely enter the water with my pony bottle. He said it was beyond my skill level and would have the dive master lower it for me.

My first 3 dives were night dives in 66 degree surface temps. I can say other than the added weight before I enter the water I almost forgot I had it on. We did navigation, sat in complete dark while a eel the thickness of a 16oz soda bottle and 3-4 feel long would not leave me alone with the lights off and the pony was quite comfortable on each dive. By dive 2 I was really cold and just wanted to push though and get it done. Lesson learned, hypothermia is a very rapid progression that none of EMT classes ever took prepared me as the written description is much nicer than the actual event. Once The cold air hit me the shaking became very violent and quite painful, I couldn't even get my gear off or think. One of the dive students is a Paramedic was able to take action. I'm actually thankful that I did not go on the "Deep speciality, your going to 130 feet to get narc'd especially at 50 degree temps". At 66 degrees the effects were bad 50 degrees it would of been worse. Now doing research on better thermal protection.

The gulf was perfect this weekend and the two dives at 75/60 feet were nice. I did a giant stride off the boat with the pony bottle and absolutely no issues.

I want to thank the people who responded to my inquiry. I am quickly realizing that I need to be responsible for myself, my own peace of mind and that no one should deny me that owner/instructor or not. If the rule is anyone should be able to call off a dive for any reason, I did before I even hit water. I'm now very glad I didn't go that weekend. I will dive with my kit shallow or deep and continue to drill and hope it will never be needed. As for why I picked 30Cf. I found an article by Doppler before I came to SB, it sounded reasonable out of much if the information I had gone over. I'm 5' 5" and a 30cf seemed better suited for my body type. I think now a 40 would of been ok but I'm content with the 30. I used a Dive Rite stage bottle rig and had to adjust to bring it closer to my body. I sling on the right side and moved my spare mask to my left pocket. My regulator is a Atomic B2 DIN and the bottle is filled with air. I would like to thank Doppler for taking the time to answer a lot of questions I had to fine tune my equipment and use before my dive. Again I read every post and appreciate the input.

Just a couple quick comments ...

First, while there's certainly some validity to concerns about not pushing a student beyond their skill level, some instructors tend to take it too far ... and in the process do their students a disservice by holding them back or stunting their ability to work through the problems they may encounter. A better approach would have been for him to "coach" you through entry while carrying the bottle. After all, he won't be there to hand it down once class is over and you're diving on your own.

Second thought ... next time, bring a couple jugs of hot water for after the dive. We do that up here in winter and even in a drysuit, dumping hot water over yourself when you're cold provides instant relief. Of course, you then need to take steps to get out of your wet stuff, dry off and cover up ... but at least you're not shivering while you're doing those things.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
...
First, while there's certainly some validity to concerns about not pushing a student beyond their skill level, some instructors tend to take it too far ... and in the process do their students a disservice by holding them back or stunting their ability to work through the problems they may encounter. A better approach would have been for him to "coach" you through entry while carrying the bottle. After all, he won't be there to hand it down once class is over and you're diving on your own.
....

I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it. People go from OW class to instructor in a matter of year.. Diving just 1 set of gear, only locally, never trying anything else. I think the PADI instructor standards are way too low. IMNO much less knowledge and skills are required to become a PADI instructor than passing something like GUE fundies.

More and more I'm convinced that OP's instructor simply doesn't know what to do with this pony beast. Never used, never tried, never heard of. He is just trying to be careful. What if there is really some "skill" required? He doesn't know, so he is just pushing "it's beyond your skill level" mantra. While there is no much skill needed to handle a pony, just a little common sense, that's all.
 
Most of the dive boats in NJ don't want you on UNLESS you have a pony bottle.

I'm guessing there's more to this story than meets the eye.

A little OT: isn't it unusual to use DIN connectors on a Pony bottle? I don't think I've ever seen that before.
 

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