No such thing as a Pony Bottle

[Akimbo]

Never seen a diver with a DIN pony here in the states. (Now, watch 100 people post that they have them).

I use rebreather valves on my back-mounted bailouts, which are DIN only. They are more compact and a little less susceptible to entanglement.

 

[AdivingBel]

I've read this entire thread up to this point. I want to preface my comments by saying to the OP that I mean this in the nicest possible way. I also mean it in the Scubaboard spirit of open discussion.

That said, maybe this isn't about a pony bottle... I've read about a diver that has OW, AOW, and Rescue certifications working on specialties to aquire a Dive Master certification I'm assuming with the intention of working in the industry at some level. This diver is refusing to do a required dive within recreational limits (albeit cold water, low viz) with an instructor(s) and other students without a fully redundant air source beyond the accepted dive buddy practice. The diver's refusal admittedly stems from a bad experience in a prior certification course. The diver feels so strongly about this that they risk not completing the course even though they have put in substantial time, money, and resources (GI benefits) and put in jepardy even possible future employment. All of this because they won't complete one dive within recreational limits using otherwise accepted gear and practices (surely the exposure protection issue could be resolved for this one dive given it's importance to the diver). This seems like a confidence issue either with the diver's own skills or with the instruction they are receiving (maybe this was the instuctor that abandoned the diver in the previous cert course). I understand the safety factor with the pony, but a diver looking to work in the industry should be able to perform this dive. Nothing precludes the diver from using a pony on all future dives, but the refusal to do the dive as part of the certification process rasies all kinds of red flags for a diver certifying to work in the industry. Maybe, just maybe, the instructor realized this and was trying to help the diver get past their previous "bad experience" by refusing the pony bottle. Maybe he handled it poorly, but didn't want to embarass or further traumatize the diver by throwing the "fear factor" in the divers face. Maybe the instructor thought by getting the diver to face the situation in a controlled environment and by treating the diver as part of the rest of the class it would help the diver move on from the previous bad experience. Maybe the diver needs more diving experience (43 dives) before acquiring this certification and to build more confidence the divers own skill set. The use of the pony should stem from a desire for safety not the fear of diving. There is a difference. Maybe the instructor handled this very poorly, but he may not be a complete idiot.

 

[AfterDark]

I spent a lot of time on these boards lurking through pages of peoples thoughts about Pony Bottles. I selected a 30cf Worthington bottle, with a DIN Atomic Aquatic reg, Dive Rite Travel/Sidemount for sling rigging and a 1" gauge on a 6inch hose.

Done a lot of pool work connecting, disconnecting from my BCD, exchanging regulators, boyancy etc. I was left on my first open water dive when my buddy had low air and the instructors left me alone at 80 feet while helping them. That whole stick with your buddy thing doesn't always happen.

Today the dive shop owner approached me said he saw I had a "stage bottle" an that I don't have the training for it that it's a tech level requirement and they go through hours and hours of how to use it. I said it's a pony bottle and he told me there's no such thing, people just use that phrase as an excuse and that having one causes more problems than it's worth. He doesn't want me wearing them on any training dives with his shop. He said "you don't see anyone else in my shop wearing one?!"

I'm now sitting in the PADI deep diver class where it talks about oh what's this?! Pony Bottles or Alternative Air Source. Thoughts?!

My thought? Your instructor is an A-hole. Find someone else.

---------- Post added October 8th, 2014 at 06:06 PM ----------

He said that his instructors doesn't have the training if something happens with it while I'm diving. I'm already in the Divemaster program and can't leave. It's also the only shop in our area. I just didn't understand it's a Tec skill to have a Alternate Air source or that it would require hours and hours if specialized training. I asked would it matter if I had it mounted to my tank and was told... It just causes more problems than it prevents.

edit: It's filled with air only for emergency and not considered a part of my diving air supply.

It isn't "tech" it's life insurance. Your instructor is an A-hole. Find someone else.

 

[Mustard Dave]

Personally I think it is a diver taking responsibility for their own safety and raising some genuine concerns. I would much rather see somebody question the training of a poor instructor and go elsewhere than blindly follow their lead and become nothing but a clone.

---------- Post added October 8th, 2014 at 11:13 PM ----------

I can't remember ever having seen a yoke reg in use. Since everybody (and his brother) use DIN and yoke regs more or less are special order items these days, I'd estimate that about 99.5% of those inserts would either confuse the customer, or being unscrewed and promptly put somewhere where it's immediately forgotten.

But if you ask, the LDS will of course be happy to order an insert for you...

Over here, DIN regs are by far the most common, however, every cylinder I have ever bought has come with an insert fitted for A-clamp regs. All of the regs at the dive school my club is attached to are A-clamp, for reasons I don't understand. Also, I notice many of the instructors and DMs have the same on their personal kit. My LDS sell A-clamp, but the vast majority of reg sets leaving the shop are proper ones.

 

[AfterDark]

You are right, nearly off topic. Your desire to not play by any rules is a fantasy. You want to dive off somebody else's boat, you play by their rules. At a resort? Play by their rules. In another country? Play by their rules. Taking a class because you might actually want to learn something instead of reinventing the wheel, play by the class's rules. I'll bet good money there is something about your drysuit, or your camera, or diving solo, or using a pony, or going deeper than 60 feet, that you do not know from learning it on your own. Hopefully what you don't know won't kill you. Sadly, you are probably not getting full value from any of those activities from having approached them as an untrained person. Note I am distinguishing between training and getting a blessing, as you put it. It is nice you want to take full responsibility for your actions. Can you guarantee your family is willing to care for you as an invalid forever, because you did something really stupid on a deep dive with your drysuit while solo, absorbed in your camera, and took a giant Type II DCS hit, and are paralyzed from the neck down?

There, how's that for a rant?

Is this a gag post?

 

[Akimbo]

… First, while there's certainly some validity to concerns about not pushing a student beyond their skill level, some instructors tend to take it too far…

Interesting conundrum; “too far” is a complex stipulation. The most effective training I have experienced all involved pushing me to my limits — or more precisely demonstrating to me that my actual limits were well beyond my preconceived notions.

I have also witnessed a few people that were pushed too far by design and to their benefit, though not really any farther than other students. Sometimes those people aren’t the student themselves but a boyfriend, parent, or pier. Not everyone possesses the physical and/or emotional characteristics required to manage problems underwater. Sometimes a swimming coach, physical trainer, the passage of time, and/or a psychologist are called for… if they really care about diving in the first place.

 

[AfterDark]

I've read this entire thread up to this point. I want to preface my comments by saying to the OP that I mean this in the nicest possible way. I also mean it in the Scubaboard spirit of open discussion.

That said, maybe this isn't about a pony bottle... I've read about a diver that has OW, AOW, and Rescue certifications working on specialties to aquire a Dive Master certification I'm assuming with the intention of working in the industry at some level. This diver is refusing to do a required dive within recreational limits (albeit cold water, low viz) with an instructor(s) and other students without a fully redundant air source beyond the accepted dive buddy practice. The diver's refusal admittedly stems from a bad experience in a prior certification course. The diver feels so strongly about this that they risk not completing the course even though they have put in substantial time, money, and resources (GI benefits) and put in jepardy even possible future employment. All of this because they won't complete one dive within recreational limits using otherwise accepted gear and practices (surely the exposure protection issue could be resolved for this one dive given it's importance to the diver). This seems like a confidence issue either with the diver's own skills or with the instruction they are receiving (maybe this was the instuctor that abandoned the diver in the previous cert course). I understand the safety factor with the pony, but a diver looking to work in the industry should be able to perform this dive. Nothing precludes the diver from using a pony on all future dives, but the refusal to do the dive as part of the certification process rasies all kinds of red flags for a diver certifying to work in the industry. Maybe, just maybe, the instructor realized this and was trying to help the diver get past their previous "bad experience" by refusing the pony bottle. Maybe he handled it poorly, but didn't want to embarass or further traumatize the diver by throwing the "fear factor" in the divers face. Maybe the instructor thought by getting the diver to face the situation in a controlled environment and by treating the diver as part of the rest of the class it would help the diver move on from the previous bad experience. Maybe the diver needs more diving experience (43 dives) before acquiring this certification and to build more confidence the divers own skill set. The use of the pony should stem from a desire for safety not the fear of diving. There is a difference. Maybe the instructor handled this very poorly, but he may not be a complete idiot.

Or he could be like the OP instructor, a.... well you know. If not see previous post.

 

[kayakguy]

I've read this entire thread up to this point. I want to preface my comments by saying to the OP that I mean this in the nicest possible way. I also mean it in the Scubaboard spirit of open discussion.

I edited this a bit for space.

Well said and a view that is valid in my opinion. I wouldn't require or expect students to have a pony and therefore I would not dive with one in rec limits as a professional. But that is just me and if the you are the kind who feels a pony necessary to reduce the risk to your comfort level, then go for it and find another instructor if that is what it takes.

 

[MichigandiverJon]

From looking at your set-up I'm just wondering if he is concerned about how the bail out is slung or just doesn't want it at all. First I understand he is not attempting to dive sidemount but maybe the instructor sees it that way for some reason? How long have you been diving with this shop/ instructor, he may think you will use the bail out as a spare tank for you to stay down longer instead of the purpose of bail out and returning to the surface. If he thinks you are not properly trained then as a good instructor teaching a DM course he should explain further as to why and what the proper training is. So I would go that route and also explain it is your life what will it take to be properly trained in his opinion. The only training really should be him going over proper attachment, securing hoses, pre-dive safety checks, ect. As an instructor I would never say no to a bail-out unless I saw issues with the set-up and then I would help them to correct the issue if able to do so at that time.

Hopefully, this is only a little off the topic here. But it doesn't really make a difference in the purpose of the bottle whether it's slung or hard mounted on the tank correct? And: What preferences are there between slinging a "pony" or mounting it to your main tank? I'm very interested in getting a redundant air source myself.

 

[DENLASCUBA]

This would be your preference, what makes you most comfortable and also depending how/where you are diving. Having it slung gives you a lot easier access to the valve, back mount is a bit harder. I have seen some divers with slung who had issues removing and handing it up to the boat crews in choppy seas as where back mount is easier to get out but still adds more weight when climbing stairs. also a back mount may make it more difficult on some boats depending how much room is available for your gear area and how the tanks are stowed when filling. Also if you have to keep changing over tanks on he boat a back mount can get annoying when having to constantly move it around, boat crews may not touch it and have you do it, which is best as you know where the comfort zone is.