No such thing as a Pony Bottle

[fnfalman]

I just use the Spare Air for those deep dives.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

I just use the Spare Air for those deep dives.

Your Gonna Die!

 

[KenGordon]

And the problem with that is...?

You asked for a difference, not a problem for an user who knows what they are doing.

---------- Post added September 27th, 2014 at 06:00 PM ----------

What did the pony have to do with her making the wrong decision and then taking the wrong course of action when the pony ran dry? Blaming equipment for an error in judgment is really reaching for it.

If the pony had not been there she would not have thought she had gas when presumably her main tank was off.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Dude, get a ladder. You're just digging a deeper and deeper hole. Again, are you an instructor or have any tech training? No if she had been using proper procedures and been properly trained she would have known that she made a mistake and corrected it with no issue. Again it's a skills and judgment issue. Not a gear issue.

 

[redacted]

If the pony had not been there she would not have thought she had gas when presumably her main tank was off.

Balance that idea with "if the pony had been there, he/she would have had gas..." Which way do you think the scales would tilt?

A pony is not the perfect solution, but either is the buddy system. While discussion of advantages and disadvantages are warranted and can be very helpful, the decision is the diver's. Not the shop's, not the instructor's. Their decision is whether to accept or reject the customer.

 

[KenGordon]

Dude, get a ladder. You're just digging a deeper and deeper hole. Again, are you an instructor or have any tech training? No if she had been using proper procedures and been properly trained she would have known that she made a mistake and corrected it with no issue. Again it's a skills and judgment issue. Not a gear issue.

And the OP would be using proper procedures and have had the training by some magic ahead of this course she was doing?

The point is that a pony introduces extra ways to have issues, that is why it isn't suitable for a novice who is still working through the complications of diving at all.

---------- Post added September 27th, 2014 at 06:14 PM ----------

Balance that idea with "if the pony had been there, he/she would have had gas..." Which way do you think the scales would tilt?

A pony is not the perfect solution, but either is the buddy system. While discussion of advantages and disadvantages are warranted and can be very helpful, the decision is the diver's. Not the shop's, not the instructor's. Their decision is whether to accept or reject the customer.

And in this case it sounds like the instructor is rejecting the customer based on the customer's idea of kit config. Then gets called an idiot on here.

 

[Akimbo]

…If the pony had not been there she would not have thought she had gas when presumably her main tank was off.

It is true that every safety system adds complexity and can compromise rapid and accurate problem diagnosis. Buoyancy compensators, redundant gas supplies, octopus regulators, dive computers, quick release weight systems, and dive buddies all suffer the same problem. The question each diver must analyze for themselves is what systems offer a greater advantage than their inherent risk in a particular circumstance.

 

[fire_diver]

blah blah blah

The only person here who is unsuitable to use a pony is you, so please take your tired diatribe elsewhere.

 

[Storker]

You asked for a difference, not a problem for an user who knows what they are doing.

Dude, I'm sorry. I thought I was discussing with someone who was able to understand context, not just relate to the literal wording of an argument. So, let me rephrase my question:

What's the practical difference, considering diver safety?


And just FTR, I know that there's two 1st stages instead of one, that there's two - or three - valves instead of one, and that the tanks are fixed to the BP (or BCD) by steel tank bands and screws rather than by webbing and a buckle. I'm wondering what the practical, safety-related difference might be once someone has rigged his/her gear, briefed his/her buddy about the location of the alternate and ensured that the tank valve(s) is/are open.

It's a well-known fact that once you find yourself in a hole, it might be a good idea to stop digging. Or, like Jim said: Dude, get a ladder.

 

[redacted]

And in this case it sounds like the instructor is rejecting the customer based on the customer's idea of kit config. Then gets called an idiot on here.

I went into the shop and told him I thought about what he said and discussed it with my family and friends and want to dive with my bottle and I wanted to know more of his concerns.

He he told me it's a tec skill and that he would have to contact PADI and find out what training I needed. He said because his instructors were not Tec that it wouldn't be good for me to dive with it if there's problems. The bottle created it's own complexities and can cause problems without training. Such as what if I lost my primary regulator what would I do and I said use my alternate air source off my BCD if I had a problem getting my primary reg (or the pony reg but I didn't want to sound like a smart ass). Well, no one in our shop, students or instructors wear one. I told him that's their choice that this was for my safety not theirs. Told me adding gear can cause problems and explained how a guy go tangled up in his reel. I explained that in my open water, rescue diver, deep, Divemaster books all talk about having a pony bottle so it's not Tec. He argued the point in which my non diving husband got upset and pointed at my bottle and said that's in the book, it's not a stage bottle but for emergencies. The owner said you can wear it I don't care and walked away.

I'm not going diving this weekend that is clear and now we are trying to figure out if we can eat all the classes and pay him for all I've taken so far and quit the program. Deal with VA and such. I'm beyond angry and my husband is livid. Even my 19 year old is saying this is messed up.

There's been a lot of great information and I appreciate a great deal of it. I don't think the owner is an idiot, however sometimes I believe people forget the basics. Plates and wings are common here so is Tech and Cave. The course I am taking is Deep Diver and my class which was supposed to start, about two and a half hours later it hadn't started and I said I had to go soon. My "class" consisted of a 15 minute knowledge review. I did my research, I did drills and I understood the complete concept. Had I gone up there with this and did not do any research or prep then I would of understood the concern. I practiced in the pool and in the river in prep for this weekend. I think some of the issue is no one has a pony.

I received this today which is a much different tone from this morning but still very insistent it's a "stage" bottle.


"I wasn't prepared to have that conversation this morning. I still needed to contact PADI to find out what the standards say on this. This has nothing to do with you personally but the decision made is in effect creating a new policy I have to follow for the next few years basically. I decided to call PADI for more information instead of just making the decision I felt was right. I can not do something to take care of one person without making that effective for everyone. So while I don't think it will end up being an issue for you to use the stage I can't just make that decision on the fly and was not prepared to argue about until I got more information. I called PADI and while they agreed with my assessment they also stated that there is no policy or standard that says that a student cannot use a stage bottle. "

Perhaps we read differently also. Sounds to me like the owner is changing his position. Now we will just have to see if the circus set off too many red flags for the customer to continue.