No such thing as a Pony Bottle

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Cite a case please.
What kind of complication? On mine, all I or anyone has to do is pull the octo (same yellow, same place as one would be off my 1st stage) and start breathing.

Case -
Minnesota diver dies in the Straits of Mackinac : News : UpNorthLive.com
or SB Thread http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/489377-diving-accident-cedarville.html

Only adding information not proposing I agree or disagree with any position. The article is really hard to believe and yet it happened...

 

[Storker]

Are they on a course under the supervision of an instructor, having done a handful of dives?

I dunno 'bout the first. About the second: even freshly minted OW or 1* divers 'round here may well end up with doubles. Used - or, as they say in the ads, "pre-owned" - gear is often seen as a good choice for a new diver on a budget. I dive a single tank setup myself, for various reasons, but I don't see any problem with doubles, even for unexperienced divers. I've dived with unexperienced, insecure divers using doubles, and I haven't been able to see any difference.

Since you apparently know more about this issue than I do, please tell me: what's the difference from a single tank setup once you get underwater?

 

[KenGordon]

Since you apparently know more about this issue than I do, please tell me: what's the difference from a single tank setup once you get underwater?

The knob in the middle.

---------- Post added September 27th, 2014 at 02:54 PM ----------

Cite a case please.



What kind of complication? On mine, all I or anyone has to do is pull the octo (same yellow, same place as one would be off my 1st stage) and start breathing.



And without it you sure don't have enough gas. Moreover, this won't happen with proper planning. If it does your butt is cooked anyway



Who's school of thought? Yours? Dude, you really should quit blowing smoke out yer arse

Imagine a novice diver. They get in the water with two first stages or there stages. They have to make decisions about which to use. Which is more complicated.

Before getting in the water, how many things do they turn on? One of one, one of two or one of three? Which is more complicated?

The argument goes like this:

In the buddy system you have a buddy to go to for gas, that will cover you for shallower, non deco dives. Deeper, solo and deco dives people want to feel like the buddy isn't so important. However many of those dives are at depths which a pony isn't applicable. A typical pony is 600l, a perfect ascent from 30m will take nearly 300l. An elevated SAC, faffing deep etc mean that you will be touch and go for gas.

There are many threads running to hundreds of posts regarding the usefulness of ponies. At least the OP has a more sensible sized one.

 

[redacted]

It is not that a pony bottle does not come with some added burdens. There is complication, cost, weight, and learning involved. And that must be traded off with any risk benefit (or increases - thanks for the link). Hell, a safety on a firearm is added complication but would anyone seriously consider eliminating them.

The real point here is this tradeoff needs to be made by the diver, not some dive shop - especially one that claims there is no such thing as a pony and insists on referring to it as a stage. Sure, dive shop rules - take them or leave them.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are divers, some well known on this board, who died in an OOA emergency that would still be with us today had they had a pony.

The flaws of the buddy system are fairly easy to see. This is not a decision that I would let someone else make for me.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

It is not that a pony bottle does not come with some added burdens. There is complication, cost, weight, and learning involved. And that must be traded off with any risk benefit (or increases - thanks for the link). Hell, a safety on a firearm is added complication but would anyone seriously consider eliminating them.

The real point here is this tradeoff needs to be made by the diver, not some dive shop - especially one that claims there is no such thing as a pony and insists on referring to it as a stage. Sure, dive shop rules - take them or leave them.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are divers, some well known on this board, who died in an OOA emergency that would still be with us today had they had a pony.

The flaws of the buddy system are fairly easy to see. This is not a decision that I would let someone else make for me.

I think the enlightened instructor would have simply said yes you can use a pony, BUTTT I (me- it is my personal policy) that you MUST take some additional training with me to use it. How long can it take to go over a pony bottle? 45 minutes? If the guy is certified and he wants to use one when done with the class, then why not expand the curriculum for that student to show him how to use it safely.

Pony bottles can (and have) killed people.. the instructor can explain that and most reasonable people would accept some small additional charge for personalized instruction that will benefit them, allow them to dive the way they want AND still follow standards.

I started teaching my kids at around 9 years old to scuba in open water and they were taught how to use a pony bottle at this age. In reality it may be 10 minutes of explanation, but maybe an instructor can expand it to 45 minutes, with some special skills etc.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The knob in the middle.

---------- Post added September 27th, 2014 at 02:54 PM ----------



Imagine a novice diver. They get in the water with two first stages or there stages. They have to make decisions about which to use. Which is more complicated.

Before getting in the water, how many things do they turn on? One of one, one of two or one of three? Which is more complicated?

The argument goes like this:

In the buddy system you have a buddy to go to for gas, that will cover you for shallower, non deco dives. Deeper, solo and deco dives people want to feel like the buddy isn't so important. However many of those dives are at depths which a pony isn't applicable. A typical pony is 600l, a perfect ascent from 30m will take nearly 300l. An elevated SAC, faffing deep etc mean that you will be touch and go for gas.

There are many threads running to hundreds of posts regarding the usefulness of ponies. At least the OP has a more sensible sized one.

Where are you getting these numbers? Typical where? A 19 or 20 cu ft bottle is perfectly adequate for getting to the surface from 100 ft. I've done it.
Your statement about deeper, solo, and deco dives is also way off the mark and shows a lack of information. A buddy is still important on deco and deep dives if diving as a team. On solo dives you have no buddy so let's just leave that out and not lump it in with the other two. A buddy or teammate is still important but should not be necessary to get to the surface if the gas needs were planned correctly.

The knob in the middle has no bearing on this. It should always be open except in the case of needing to isolate the gas supply in the event of a problem. This is taken care of on the surface. The way I was taught is that the isolator is always kept open. You check this before getting in. All your first stages are on. No big deal. You breathe from each reg to make sure of that. Depending on the type and configuration your pony bottle may be left on or shut down once you are underwater. It's not rocket science.

This is also why if the standards recommend, require, or allow the use of alternate supplies the instructor must spend time thoroughly covering that. Set up, types, use, and when and how to deploy.

It also seems like there is some term confusion here. Let's just get rid of that and call it what it really is - a spare cylinder. Pony, stage, deco bottle, etc. and the seeming interchangeable use of those terms is what gets people all screwed up. If you are carrying a spare cylinder then you handle it according to the needs of the dive and the best practices for it's use under those conditions. If it has been filled with a mix that is not appropriate for all depths you take that into account and mark it accordingly. That is a deco bottle or stage. If it can be used at all depths for the dive then it's a back up cylinder and air supply. It's not that complicated.

If it's properly configured and the user mistakenly gets on it instead of back gas then when it runs down they switch to one of the other regs. Again, not a big deal.

The link to the thread discussing the Cedarville accident was not due to the diver carrying a pony. It was due to diver error and from the sounds of it poor pre dive procedures.

 

[KenGordon]

Where are you getting these numbers? Typical where? A 19 or 20 cu ft bottle is perfectly adequate for getting to the surface from 100 ft. I've done it.
Your statement about deeper, solo, and deco dives is also way off the mark and shows a lack of information. A buddy is still important on deco and deep dives if diving as a team. On solo dives you have no buddy so let's just leave that out and not lump it in with the other two. A buddy or teammate is still important but should not be necessary to get to the surface if the gas needs were planned correctly.

The knob in the middle has no bearing on this. It should always be open except in the case of needing to isolate the gas supply in the event of a problem. This is taken care of on the surface. The way I was taught is that the isolator is always kept open. You check this before getting in. All your first stages are on. No big deal. You breathe from each reg to make sure of that. Depending on the type and configuration your pony bottle may be left on or shut down once you are underwater. It's not rocket science.

This is also why if the standards recommend, require, or allow the use of alternate supplies the instructor must spend time thoroughly covering that. Set up, types, use, and when and how to deploy.

It also seems like there is some term confusion here. Let's just get rid of that and call it what it really is - a spare cylinder. Pony, stage, deco bottle, etc. and the seeming interchangeable use of those terms is what gets people all screwed up. If you are carrying a spare cylinder then you handle it according to the needs of the dive and the best practices for it's use under those conditions. If it has been filled with a mix that is not appropriate for all depths you take that into account and mark it accordingly. That is a deco bottle or stage. If it can be used at all depths for the dive then it's a back up cylinder and air supply. It's not that complicated.

If it's properly configured and the user mistakenly gets on it instead of back gas then when it runs down they switch to one of the other regs. Again, not a big deal.

The link to the thread discussing the Cedarville accident was not due to the diver carrying a pony. It was due to diver error and from the sounds of it poor pre dive procedures.

1 minute to get act together at 4 bar
3 minutes to surface at average 2.5 bar
= 11.5 bar minutes, at a SAC of 25l/m = 287.5 l of free gas. approximately 10cuft.

No stops, not much time for faffing, not very hard breathing, generally best case.

The point about more serious diving is a desire not to have the buddy as the number one solution. Thus twinsets with isolation valves allow a driver to solve their own reg failure first and then go to the buddy in less of a panic to abort the dive. In the solo case obviously there is no option.

My point to the OP is that use of a pony in an early part of training is not 100% accepted as a good idea and that the instructor might have reasons not to want it. The fact that someone practiced in its use can use one does not mean that a novice will be safer with one.

BSAC incident report 2007, not a death but a close call

August 2007 07/213
A diver conducted a 29 min dive to a depth of 35m. 1 hour 42 min later she dived to 20m for 41 min. 1 hour 45 min later she made a third dive to 20m. 10 min into this dive she ran out of air. She made a fast free ascent to the surface. It is thought that she took in some water during this ascent. The diver was placed on oxygen and diving medical advice was sought. The diver was taken to hospital for treatment for suspected lung damage. The diver had run out of air because she had entered the water using her pony regulator by mistake.

 

[Storker]

The knob in the middle.

And the problem with that is...?

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

It was due to diver error and from the sounds of it poor pre dive procedures.

In the end - isn't it always Diver Error? Error in judgement, redundancy, skills, hubris, .... You enter the water you need to be prepared - if you are not - you are responsible for you - are you not?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

1 minute to get act together at 4 bar
3 minutes to surface at average 2.5 bar
= 11.5 bar minutes, at a SAC of 25l/m = 287.5 l of free gas. approximately 10cuft.

No stops, not much time for faffing, not very hard breathing, generally best case.

The point about more serious diving is a desire not to have the buddy as the number one solution. Thus twinsets with isolation valves allow a driver to solve their own reg failure first and then go to the buddy in less of a panic to abort the dive. In the solo case obviously there is no option.

My point to the OP is that use of a pony in an early part of training is not 100% accepted as a good idea and that the instructor might have reasons not to want it. The fact that someone practiced in its use can use one does not mean that a novice will be safer with one.

BSAC incident report 2007, not a death but a close call

August 2007 07/213
A diver conducted a 29 min dive to a depth of 35m. 1 hour 42 min later she dived to 20m for 41 min. 1 hour 45 min later she made a third dive to 20m. 10 min into this dive she ran out of air. She made a fast free ascent to the surface. It is thought that she took in some water during this ascent. The diver was placed on oxygen and diving medical advice was sought. The diver was taken to hospital for treatment for suspected lung damage. The diver had run out of air because she had entered the water using her pony regulator by mistake.

What did the pony have to do with her making the wrong decision and then taking the wrong course of action when the pony ran dry? Blaming equipment for an error in judgment is really reaching for it.