Dr. Lecter
Contributor
When I saw that ad, I assumed PADI was trying to say it is the tae kwon do of SCUBA diving.
No such thing as a Pony Bottle
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When I saw that ad, I assumed PADI was trying to say it is the tae kwon do of SCUBA diving.
It happens now and again that divers start dives breathing off their pony, run out of qas quickly and die.
A pony is extra complication.
A pony may not have enough gas when you need it.
There is a school of though that says they are never the answer.
If his course doesn't really go there then I can see that having a (presumably untrained) student bring along extra kit might be a problem for the instructor.
Where is the line for wild kit config? Would a twinset be ok? A type R rebreather?
Mostly this thread illustrates the need to figure out the instructor before committing. A bit like employing a builder (contractor). Make sure you contradict them first and see how they handle it.
Sounds like you ex-services funding is a distortion. That happened in the UK in the 90s when dive shops noticed that funding for training to get a job could be used for courses on the way to instructor including PADI OW. the student paid £99 and the government the rest. Everyone qualified for this and (as I remember it) every shop took advantage. People are often much less fussy about stuff they think of as free.
Ken
A pony is extra complication.
A pony may not have enough gas when you need it.
There is a school of though that says they are never the answer.
If his course doesn't really go there then I can see that having a (presumably untrained) student bring along extra kit might be a problem for the instructor.
Where is the line for wild kit config? Would a twinset be ok? A type R rebreather?
Mostly this thread illustrates the need to figure out the instructor before committing. A bit like employing a builder (contractor). Make sure you contradict them first and see how they handle it.
Sounds like you ex-services funding is a distortion. That happened in the UK in the 90s when dive shops noticed that funding for training to get a job could be used for courses on the way to instructor including PADI OW. the student paid £99 and the government the rest. Everyone qualified for this and (as I remember it) every shop took advantage. People are often much less fussy about stuff they think of as free.
Ken
Bigd2722
Contributor
I wonder what the owner's qualifications are? Is he/she an instructor who knows the issues or is this person a finance wonk who knows money and liability and just happens to have an investment in a dive shop? I certainly would question any shop that left an open water student alone at 80 feet.
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I sincerely hope so. Otherwise, about half of my clubmates would be disqualified. Doubles are rather popular around here...
---------- Post added September 27th, 2014 at 02:36 PM ----------
You're right. I don't see a big need for a pony for myself, given the way I dive. However, if one of my buddys slung a pony, should I tell him that HE doesn't need it? No effing way. If he feels safer with a pony, that's his choice. As long as he's following the buddy procedures I expect from my buddy (1: carry an alternate I can use and be able to donate it if fit hits the shan, 2: stay in contact with me and don't swim off), I won't tell him how to rig his kit. His kit, his choice.
fire_diver
Contributor
What difference does it make on a class or not? Are you saying that nobody should be allowed to take dive instruction in anything other thana single tank, short hose and poodle jacket?
Or are you saying that they aren't appropriate when taking a class from an unqualified instructor?
No, I am saying that the instructor is running the lesson and it is his call as to what gear he is prepared to support in that lesson. If the lesson doesn't require item x, y or z and the instructor doesn't want them then either do as asked or find a different instructor.
A lesson/class is not normal diving. The instructor is present, making (hopefully) better informed judgements than either the class or people on forums. Maybe he has experience of novices use of a pony, maybe he is not up for "she used it on a course, then died because she was not taught how to use it properly" etc.
Obviously there are different ways for an instructor to implement this. Do research as to the quality of the instructor before signing up.
In some cases yes. I allow and even encourage the use of doubles and sidemount for AOW and any class after OW where the diver may need the additional gas those offer. An Underwater Nav class for example. Never get deeper than 30 feet or so. But we do one hour or more long dives. A diver who has a high RMV may indeed benefit from taking the class in dbl 72's as opposed to a single AL80. Or sidemounting a pair of 50's.
One thing that I think is seriously missing here is that you don't accept students for AOW or Deep classes who are not ready for them. An OW diver with 4 checkout dives has no business being in an AOW or Deep class. They do not have the necessary buoyancy, trim, and rescue skills for it. They have gotten little if any real information on dive planning and gas management. They are being used for what is in their wallet more than anything. An AOW class participant should have good buoyancy and trim skills, understand that they alone are responsible for their safety, and they should have worked on their basic skills on practice dives on their own without an instructor present.
Most are not anywhere near that when they are signed up for one. Plus the fact that any deep course should include and encourage the use of redundant gas supplies for emergencies. Now that does require the instructor to include a good deal of information on gas planning, SAC and RMV, Rock Bottom, and Minimum Gas requirements.
Now to be fair there are a butt load of OWSI's that have never heard of some of these so how can they teach them? I've seen instructors take students to 100 ft on AL80's and no one else is carrying any back up air cylinders. I understand that some recommend the practice of hanging a tank at 15-20 feet on deep dive classes and the AOW deep.
Ok but what happens when the students rental reg that was not properly serviced or cared for goes into free flow at 100? or 90? That bottle hanging at 15 -20 may as well be on the friggin moon. If you are not going to require 100 cu ft or higher capacity tanks for dives in the 80 to 100 ft range then the student better be carrying a back up gas supply. And a Spare Air is not it.
IMO a Deep Course should never be done with students in single tanks only and no redundant air supply. Large single and slung bottle, doubles, or Sidemount. Then you go over emergency deco procedures. Not planned decompression dives but what you should be doing if the SHTF and you do run over the NDL's solving the issue. And extending the safety stop is not it. Because it's no longer a safety stop. It's a required deco stop.
The whole thing here is that this instructor is also not seeing the increase in potential business by accepting these ideas. His narrow minded view is part of why I get lots of business. His approach drives those students to me for BPW's (I've sold nearly two dozen this year). Many of those to places where there are local shops. They come to me for stage regs, hardware, doubles and sidemount reg sets as well as a someone who listens to what they want and provides it for them. Regardless of what my personal feelings on the optimum gear configuration is.
The former owner of the one shop I am in a kind of co-op with knew this as well. He was a diver but not an instructor. He had six independent instructors using the shop pool, gear, and compressor. Not once did he ever try to dictate what we used or recommended. If we told our students, and they agreed, that a BPW was best for them he would get it. The new owner is the same way. He also teaches but he's also a caver and is very big on diver safety. He doesn't try to dictate his preferred cave configuration.
The problem is not owners who teach. the problem is owners who are not open to change and new ideas. Like DEMA they are stuck in the stone age with the mistaken belief that the shop is the center of the dive universe. That because they own it they can control what people use and how they dive. Some shops don't even want you to use perfectly safe gear you bought elsewhere on the trips they sponsor or offer.
The LDS is not the center of the universe in the dive community. The individual diver is. Without you I don't have students or customers. Without you I don't buy from the mfg. The needs, wants, and interests of the person coming in my door or sending me an email order must always come before my own beliefs and interests. As long as you don't want to do something crazy with it. But even then, while I may tell you I think it's nuts I am not going to stop you unless it impacts myself, you, or other students in a class in a negative manner and raises the risk of problems.
Slinging a pony bottle for a deep course is not crazy. It's wise. Not slinging one and doing a dive in 50 degree water in a 5 mil is not only crazy but kinda dumb. It's a good way to get someone killed.
---------- Post added September 27th, 2014 at 09:46 AM ----------
Are you an instructor? Do you know what the standards are? Have you ever taken any kind of deep or technical class? Ever see a diver go OOA and not have anything to fall back on? Just because an instructor is running a class does not mean he/she is in charge. they are guiding the class but they are not the boss. The person who paid the instructor to train them is the boss. If it's allowed, encouraged, or required in the standards and the student wants it, the instructor is obligated to provide it. The standards say that a redundant air supply is encouraged, recommended, practiced with at some point, etc.. The student wants to use it. The instructor must allow that. Unless they are incapable of providing that level of instruction and support. If so they need to fess up and admit their limited ability.
Last edited:
Kharon
Contributor
Cite a case please.
What kind of complication? On mine, all I or anyone has to do is pull the octo (same yellow, same place as one would be off my 1st stage) and start breathing.
And without it you sure don't have enough gas. Moreover, this won't happen with proper planning. If it does your butt is cooked anyway
Who's school of thought? Yours? Dude, you really should quit blowing smoke out yer arse
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