Nitrox Class Without Tables or Math...OK?

[gcbryan]

The questions have mostly been about learning the math not whether to use tables vs computer.

It's good someone wants more details or it would be difficult to write 3 books telling people to just use your computer

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

Except, not all agencies require OW students to learn tables at all...

Then, there is your beef... not with this class

... and not all agencies require OW certification prior to nitrox.

Again, not with this class

At least one agency that I know of permits OW to be taught using nitrox.

Yet again, not with this class
.....

When you look at it that way there isn't much of a reason to require a seperate class/certification for nitrox at all is there? Now we're getting someplace.

I agree!

When I took OW (PADI...even), All the information was taught. If they are no longer teaching it for OW, then your beef is with them

When I went for specialties, AOW, DM, I took SSI because I liked their methods at the time.

When I became an instructor, I shopped around and chose NASE. At the time they were new, aggressive for new instructors (read cheaper), did not require shop affiliation, and did not throw all the useless "Selling Gear" (read PADI) at you.

Additionally, the insurance was LLoyds of London (These guys never settle cases) and it was cheaper than others around.
===

If you have a beef with other organizations teaching the basics incorrectly, take it up with them.

The requirements for THIS class are listed.

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

That sounds handy but I've owned a bunch of computers from various manufacturers and none of the worked that way.

My two year old Oceanic does.

To get MOD you'd have to program FO2 and go to scroll or planning mode to get the max depth on that mix. None allowed you to enter a MOD at all and would not solve for FO2. You would have to repeat the "MOD" process in a series of guesses to come up with a "best mix".

Actually, mine displays MOD AS I scroll through FO2 (using 1.4 ATA). When I use dive planning mode, it blinks when I pass MOD (1.5) and goes blank when I pass 1.6 ATA

Looks like a newer computer is on your wish list.

Probably no need to watch them breath but nitrox diving is a diving certification and I couldn't issue a diving cert without seeing the student dive.

My son and I just passed Nitrox (NAUI) class last week. No dives needed.

What certifying agency to you instruct for? (This is an honest question)...

How can you make a statement like this and argue that you don't need to dive with your nitrox students? If you expect that your students may get so narced in the depth range that you're training them for or that for any other reason they will be unable to know and follow their dive plan, don't you think you should be doing some diving with them?

It was an abstract answer designed for the particular question it answered... not a litteral blanket answer... Please... it looks like you are attempting to grasp anything that MIGHT help you

Divers need to know what depth they're at and have control over it. Once the beep happens it's a mistake that can't be undone rather than a possible future mistake that we can avoid.

Ah, this is the one.... !!!
If the diver knows their computer, and it starts to beep, they know they have made a mistake.... AND, since they understand their computer, they understand that it is NOT a fatal, or potentially fatal mistake.... AND, they understand how to correct it.

Why, because they took the time to take a Nitrox course, which taught them how to use and understand their dive computer.

You made Netdocs point VERY well!

I don't believe that beepers are the answer. LOL just like all the beepers in Mcdonalds haven't improved the food any.

McApples and McOranges

(jibberish rant about a fast food restaurant edited)

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

Jets may use computers but pilots still learn to fly and navigate.

Pilots yes, Commercial Jet Pilots... no. In most cases, they are there to taxi and monitor instruments only

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

But then there is safety. I already talked about the stupid beeper thing...once it sounds it may be too late. But...I have a computer that if you don't get in the water within a few minutes of programming the FO2 it will revert to 21%. Once in the water the only clue that this has happened is the PO2 display. If you don't have an idea what the PO2 display should be reading for the gas being used and the depth you just won't know. Now if you're diving 32% and your max PO2 is set at 1.4 ATA PO2 alarm will sound at 187 ft rather than 110 ft. That's a PO2 of over 2 ATA. This alarm will be of no use to that narced diver you mentioned in an earlier post. And... you haven't even dived with him/her so you have no idea whether they have the ability to know and follow a plan in the water.

I would never dive with such a flawed instrument. I would consider it dangerous to use on ANY dive, let alone Nitrox.

Being able to calculate or at least estimate PO2 on the fly would immediately let you know that your computer was off in left field. I'd say that's safer. Being able to calculate O2 exposure and know the MOD would allow you to continue the dive using air NDL's adding convenience possibly saving you from wasting an expensive trip.

MOD... still a requirement: Label on the tank, and in the fill station log book. It was done at time of fill.

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

That's handy but not all computers will do that. I haven't seen anything about the class that suggests that students are restricted to certain computers. They might have one like mine and it won't do that.

Mike, honestly... I wouldn't want one like yours... yours seems to be a danger when attempting to use it.

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

... I suggest that there are two different things here. Even if someone knows the Nitrox theory, but does not know how their computer works, they can get themselves in trouble. By the time they have figured it out they may already be in the problem area. If they set the proper FO2 on the computer and use it to plan the dive, then they should know what they are going to do (max depth, bottom time in the simplest way). Once they get into the water, and the FO2 setting reverts, the plan has not changed. If they are then just looking at the computer for depth/time and go deeper than the MOD because they do not notice the FO2 has reverted, they have also forgotten their plan. It does not matter at this point how much of the theory they understand, the execution of the plan was poorly done.

My god! Someone made sense... REAL sense on this issue!

 

[Charlie99]

But...I have a computer that if you don't get in the water within a few minutes of programming the FO2 it will revert to 21%. Once in the water the only clue that this has happened is the PO2 display. If you don't have an idea what the PO2 display should be reading for the gas being used and the depth you just won't know. Now if you're diving 32% and your max PO2 is set at 1.4 ATA PO2 alarm will sound at 187 ft rather than 110 ft.

[minor hijack] What make and model are you referring to? Many computers will default back to a 79% N2 + 50% O2 mixture, but I haven't heard of any that default back to air. Obviously, for any mixture from air to ean50, a computer that goes to 50% O2 79% N2 will be giving conservative numbers for both N2 loading and CNS oxtox calculations compared to what you actually are diving. /hijack

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

You know, I was thinking the very same thing. These are some of the SAME arguments used against NitrOx from the very beginning: We're all gonna DIE!!!

You're right!

I remember the first time I heard the word "Nitrox" and "Diving". It was in my old LDS, when we were drinking beers and filling tanks.

Discussion started, but no one really knew what it was (only happening one place in the Keys). But, that didn't stop us from ranting on about how diving this stuff could kill someone (Of course, everyone was a "deep" diver in those days... lol). Those nuts in the Keys... they'll do anything!

 

[BarryNL]

You know, I was thinking the very same thing. These are some of the SAME arguments used against NitrOx from the very beginning: We're all gonna DIE!!!

OTOH, there were a lot of unknowns at that time and quite a few people did indeed die - hence the gradual downward progression of the maxPP from values as high as 2.3 to today's 1.4.